What Do Aspirin and Raw Milk Have in Common?

Camel milk entrepreneur, Walid Abdul-WahabI heard from Walid Abdul-Wahab, the California camel milk guy, and he says he’s just doing what any red-blooded entrepreneur would do—he’s out there hustling his product. 

 

“We actually sell raw camel milk in California, from Missouri, (and) we are in nine Lassens (Natural Food and Vitamins) stores. We will be in 40 Whole Foods stores in northern California in the next couple of weeks (but with pasteurized camel milk).”

 

Moreover, Abdul-Wahab says he is legal in California. “We actually applied for a raw camel milk license in California from the CDFA (California Department of Food and Agriculture) and we clearly stated on the application that the milk was coming from out of state and we got approved.”


So his company, Desert Farms, is in kind of a regulatory never-never land, legal in California, but uncertain elsewhere. But Abdul-Wahab is also an optimist: “I really think we can lift the ban on all interstate raw milk, that is our ultimate goal.” 

 

In the U.S., if you are going to sell a health-giving product that doesn’t make money for Big Ag or Big Pharma, you better be optimistic, persistent, and entrepreneurial. 

 

Last week, two Harvard Medical School researchers (Michelle Holmes and Wendy Chen) vented in a NY Times op-ed piece about their frustration in obtaining $10 million of government research funds to explore the great promise of aspirin in countering breast cancer in women. 

 

Government research panels have turned these scientists down over the last four years for a relatively small amount ($10 million is a small amount, as drug research goes), yet “the government is still willing to test new cancer drugs pushed by pharmaceutical companies, despite very high failure rates for those drugs,” they complained. 

 

These Harvard scientists must be slow learners if it’s taken them four years to understand that Big Pharma (together with Big Ag) calls the shots on both drug and food regulation in this country. It doesn’t take a lot of smarts to realize that aspirin isn’t going to get government, or Big Pharma, support because aspirin doesn’t ofter the promise of exclusive patents that then churn billions of dollars for years and years. How is Big Pharma going to make billions on a generic item like aspirin? 

 

As we well know, the politicians and their Big Pharma buddies have the same attitude when it comes to raw milk. European researchers have come up with highly promising findings about the power of raw milk to protect children from asthma and allergies. 

 

Anna Petherick of the international scientific journal, Nature, detailed these findings in a groundbreaking article in a University of California, Davis, newsletter back in 2012: “GABRIELA found substantive evidence that raw milk-consuming farm kids were much less likely to develop allergies including asthma and dermatitis during childhood,” she said. She concluded by asking a question: “Is raw milk good or bad for you?” Her answer? “It’s clear that it can be harmful when contaminated. And there is strong evidence that it benefits young children, but almost no information of substance about adults. To answer the question fully, the world needs studies testing whether large numbers of grown-ups suffering from asthma, hay fever, and similar medical problems see their allergies dampen down after drinking raw milk for a prolonged period.”

 

It was an article so explosive the FDA had it removed for several weeks; the agency only relented (and even then, with “edits” on the article) when this blog objected to the blatant disregard for academic freedom. 

 

We sometimes think that the FDA has it in especially for raw milk. But really, raw milk is very similar to aspirin in the FDA/Big Pharma/Big Ag scheme of things: milk is a generic item with as little money-making potential for Big Ag processors as aspirin has for Big Pharma. More research is needed to determine the mechanisms that heal and protect. But, of course, there’s no money for research that will only benefit the masses.  


It’s up to people like Walid Abdul-Wahab, Vernon Hershberger, Mark Baker, James Stewart, Mark McAfee, and others to push the envelope, and it’s also up to people who care about their health to educate themselves, and do what they need to do to get the food they need to keep themselves and their families healthy.  We're on our own. 

mark mcafee's picture

I need to go have lunch with Abdul....

Abdul could very well have set a precidence with the CDFA and perhaps the FDA on interstate raw milk commerce. I will be certain to use this argument when we push the FDA for a second time on the Citizens Petition that has been sitting in a docket or more than a year. The FDA is required by statute to respond to all citizens petitions in 180 days. Evidently, the FDA only moves when prodded with a big nasty judicial stick. Obviously cows milk is a huge market in North America. Camels raw milk is no threat to cows milk for sure. But....the law may see this differently. Raw milk from mammals is raw milk from mammals....humped or not humped.

Deep down inside I feel a change commin...

mark mcafee's picture

David,

I am not sure what Abdul is doing...is he distributing raw over state lines and into CA or is he producing Camels raw milk inside of CA and selling it here?

David Gumpert's picture

Mark, 
I am not completely sure what he is doing....and I don't think I want to know all the details. If you look at his web site, it indicates he is looking for farmers willing to raise camels and sell him the milk. In other words, he likely has more demand than he has supply. 

Sylvia Gibson's picture

I don't know how many ethnic cultures that are here in the US that would like to consume camels milk. Obviously, plenty since supply appears to be less than demand.

http://www.voanews.com/content/us-researchers-examine-camel-milk-risks/1...

I am wondering if there may be some sort of correlation with the increase in consumers wanting camels milk and the resent statement from tptb about MERS coming from bats AND camels. Some things just make you say. Hmmm. They do love to push fear. I have a friend in St Louis who is terrified of catching MERS and heaven forbid...there is no vaccine for it. <heavy sigh>

mark mcafee's picture

http://www.fda.gov/food/resourcesforyou/consumers/ucm079311.htm

The FDA should really look at themselves for a moment. If they looked at themselves, they would realize that all of this talk of raw cows milk, goats raw milk and now camels raw milk is for a reason. Pasteurized milk is the MOST allergenic food in America.

According to GABRIELA, PARSIFAL, PASTURE and the leading PhD researchers in the world ( Erica Von Mutius etc ) raw milk is associated with reduced allergies and even prevents asthma and excema in children.

We all know that pasteurized milk has killed 8 kids just from allergic reactions in the last 10 years!!
Moms are not stupid. One must ask....is the FDA that stupid or do they just act stupid?

At some point very soon, the FDA will realize that RAMP controlled, tested and inspected raw milk is not such a bad idea after all and wow....it is pretty darn safe as well. When considering raw camels milk....with no testing, no chilling, no nada ( a non chilled bucket in a pasture )....RAMP seems pretty conservative and mainstream.

Just stating the very obvious.

mark mcafee's picture

Asthma kills 9 kids every day ( with FDA approved medicines and treatments )!!!!
Raw Milk prevents asthma!!!
Do the math.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

They don't want you to do the math. Nor do they want you to think for yourself or ask questions.

mark mcafee's picture

This language and quote is from the Walid Wahabs Desert Farms website.

"Two Sides, Two Choices: Raw vs. Pasteurized
Desert Farms does not take sides in this debate. We simply use farmers committed to the highest standards of cleanliness, which allow us to source our milk and sell it to customers who wish to safely consume raw camel milk.

However we do believe in giving our customers the choice, which is why we will be coming out with our ‘gently’ pasteurized camel milk line when we finish the final stage of investments. Our camel milk will most likely be pasteurized at a low temperature to preserve the fabulous, fresh flavor of camel milk. The low temperature would destroy dangerous pathogens (if any), but not the helpful bacteria that our bodies need.

Desert Farms believes camel milk is healthy in both forms, raw and pasteurized. We want to give our customers the right to choose, to be happy and have peace of mind when using our products. The nutritional differences of raw and pasteurized milks are thought to be slim, although we do believe our raw camel milk would be more nutritious than pasteurized camel milk because our camels are extremely healthy and pasture-raised."

Ladies and gentlemen...did you read this? I mean really read and let it settle and really digest it??
I hate to be anything but positive and supportive of raw milk...but this is downright dangerous and it is not raw milk! He is the outsourcing king of Camels milk. He also states that low temperature pasteurization preserves the good bacteria and kills the bad!!! Did I read that right??? If anything the inverse is true!! It goes on to say that their camels milk will most likely be low temperature pasteurized to kill the bad and preserve the good bacteria!!! Ouch...it is clear that he has not been exposed to education about the effects of a "five log kill" ie...(PMO minimum pasteurization at any level of heat). He then says that he only sources from camel producers with the highest standards of cleaniness and etc...what standards of cleanliness? Who is testing and inspecting?? I know all about standards of cleanliness...there are none for Camels. I have been trying my level best to bring basic raw milk sanitation standards to raw cows milk and it is like moving Mt. Everest. I would love to see what the standards for Camels raw milk is?? They are certainly not posted at his website.

Walid is not doing this for the right reasons ( at least as it is depicted at his website )...he is in it for the money and he is the middle man and not even the producer. I think he even said as much to David. If you know about dead milk...you will most certainly be committed to living milk ( raw ). He makes no commitments even close to this belief. This guy is buying raw camels milk from any place he can get it and selling it under his brand. If I suggested that process to CDFA they would have a cow or worse. TB testing is required from all sourcing dairies and interstate raw milk commerce is illegal.

There is something extremely fishy going on here...I am trying to contact Desert farms right now. Something just does not smell right.

D. Smith's picture

If the guy who has the camel operation is going to co-mingle the milk from a bunch of different farms, doesn't it HAVE to be pasteurized? I guess I thought that was the law but maybe things have changed.

Deborah - Pacifica's picture

D. evidently the individual camel dairy farms do their own bottling, so there appears to be no co-mingling between all of the camel farms.

D. Smith's picture

Thanks Deb! Long time no see. I haven't had much chance to go through all the parts of his web site yet, but it's interesting to read about even if I never get to try this product. Up here in the hinterlands we don't have much to do with camels. ;)

Deborah - Pacifica's picture

Hi D. - love getting your wonderful emails...you send out such wonderful, helpful & fun stuff! I really appreciate getting them! I will be sending you and Sylvia an email real soon and catch you both up on what's been happening in my realm! Going to take some much needed time off from June 9th through June 20th. My oldest grandson will be coming to San Diego to spend time with me and his Aunties before he deploys out on June 24th. I can't wait to see him & have some fun time with him.

David Gumpert's picture

Mark, 
I appreciate your concerns. I purposely avoided trying to read too much into Desert Farms web site, partly because this is a new enterprise and partly because it says at the very top of each web page: "A Private Members Club". It isn't clear exactly what his relationship to the milk producers is, nor what the standards are, and if it truly is a private food club, then he wouldn't have to clarify those to the public. Where I became confused is over Abdul-Wahab's statements that he is selling milk via a couple of food chains, which suggests sales to the public.  It's difficult to maintain both a private food club and a public retail distribution operation. 

I expect Abdul-Wahab will have some regulatory issues come up. So, while you definitely have legit Qs, I'd be inclined to let those shake out first. 

Sylvia Gibson's picture

Per the web site, sounds like he is trying to give the various customers what they want. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Most people could care less about plate counts, they just expect the milk to be fine, no different than what people expect the crap sold in stores to be.

http://desertfarms.com/

http://desertfarms.com/pages/our-practices

D. Smith's picture

The camel guy's blog page and the recipes are pretty interesting, too. On the blog page he mentions that none of their camels (spread across the USA) have MERS.

So, from what I read in Mark's comments above, VAT pasteurization isn't a good thing either? It's the next best thing to raw we can buy around here where I live now, so we figured low temp pasteurized was better than having it boiled to death. Am I wrong about that? (I'm talking about cow milk here). I can get raw goat milk, which I adore, but it's only available in my town one afternoon per week, she's here for about 2 hours and if you miss her, you do without for a whole week. Since we are unable to procure raw cow milk (thank you to the toads at the dairy & egg board) my grands are drinking raw goat milk and they love it, but we also love raw cow milk for making a host of things I cannot do with goat milk.

What about this inter/intrastate commerce thing? On the camel guy's web site, I noticed it's available in a lot of places in CA where I have relatives (all but about 3 places listed). Could I have them send it to me? Or I have relatives in Missouri - could I have them send it to me? Would that be illegal? Just askin' . . .

Sylvia Gibson's picture

Seems the camel guys web page is open, more so than the big cow dairies. I haven't asked about details in the processing of the milk, so can't comment on what he would divulge. At least he tells where the milk is coming from and is being open about raw and pasteurized availabilities. Gives a consumer a choice of what they want. I did read that one of the camel farms does do milk testing, and if anyone was interested, no doubt they could ask the farmers of where their camel milk comes from if they test if that is a concern for the consumer.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

Reminds me of the other farms who offer "work shops" ie: Polyface farm, even P. Allen Smith charges a lot to see his gardens. $90 per person....

http://www.cameldairy.com/Hands_on_Camels_CLINIC.html

mark mcafee's picture

I am awaiting a call from Walid. I do hope he calls.
I stand in back of a farmers market table plenty of times each month and I know exactly what consumers say and what they say they want. I also know alot about flaky confusing claims and statements. Most people that approach a farmers market table are very confused and do not know the difference between Organic and Raw....or Pasteurized and Pastured....or Homogenized and Gay lifestyles....seriously. I am not joking. I have even heard some people say...that they love the super long fresh flavor of raw milk because when they get Horizon UP Organic raw milk it lasts for two months or longer!!!

When a website is put up that makes claims about the healing qualities of milk and then also makes little argument between the differences between raw and cooked, the consumer is left with a very confused situation. Food safety is not something that is a product of confusion. I am not impressed with Desert Farms and I was especially unimpressed when the address provided was down town LA. Lastly...I am never very happy when someone does not respond to an email inquiry that is on point and directed to something as fundamental as claims of food safety and mixing up of facts between raw and cooked milks.

Here is what I think....I think that Desert Farms ( located as a brand in down town LA ) has been given enough rope by the regulators to go hang themselves.

David Gumpert's picture

Mark, I received a note from Walid Abdul-Wahab earlier today, that said this: 

"I am not sure why people are attacking me on your blog, at least that is how it seems to me. Have I done anything wrong?  I believe in raw and that is what I drink only not sure why comments are very judgmental especially coming from Mark. I am currently working with a foundation called What Took You So Long and we agreed to create a powerful campaign to lift the ban on raw milk by using raw camel milk as our example and how it's helping children with autism." 

I'm not sure why Wahid isn't posting directly. Perhaps he finds the comments a tad intimidating (he wouldn't be the first). But my sense is that he comes at this whole process as many young entrepreneurs do today--committed to building a business and doing some good with the business.  He doesn't come from the food rights activist ranks--indeed, doesn't appear to know a lot about the convoluted battles over raw milk and food rights that have been fought in recent years. Sometimes, coming into an established industry (if raw dairy can be seen as established) with a fresh approach is helpful. 

As I said, I'm not sure about the particulars of his business model, but I do know that the dairy arena needs fresh ideas and fresh approaches, and for that reason, I encourage him to forge ahead. The foundation he alludes to, "What Took You So Long" appears to have a rights-oriented international focus. 
http://whattookyousolong.org 

Sylvia Gibson's picture

David, I hope that Walid does not think that I was in any way attacking him or his business. I think it is great that there are people interested in forming new businesses, especially when it entails healthy foods. God knows that the fast phoods/standard American diets are abhorrent and a major contribution to the country's poor health. One more spoke in the wheel for good healthy foods.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

That doesn't say much for the intelligence of the people buying your milk.

Since most people who can afford raw milk are usually fairly well educated, that appears to be a great waste of money on education.

"We don’t take sides in the debate of raw vs. pasteurized. We think camel milk is great either way. "

Appears they just aren't taking sides. Lets the consumer make their own choices. What facts are you implying were mixed up between cooked and raw milk?

D. Smith's picture

@ Mark: I get a lot of that same type of confusion in my business. I have young parents who, when the baby is done with bottle feeding, switch to Horizon or some other organic milk, some UP and some UHTP, and think it is raw milk and that they are doing the kid some big favor. :seemyrollingeyes:

I've tried to explain to people (and have showed them my jugs of raw milk in the past) that #1 when you buy milk in a wax carton, it generally isn't raw; #2 when you buy UP milk and are looking for UHTP milk because you think it's a better product, you don't know come here from siccum; #3 when you buy a product in early April which has an expiration date of June 30th what on earth would convince you that was a healthy product; #4 when I try to explain that raw milk sours and UP milk putrifies, they get that blank stare or else they have an aha moment. The aha moments are by far the most rewarding and that's when they usually start paying real close attention to my words.

It's hard to educate people these days because the norm for a lot of the people in the age bracket I deal with every day have grown up with foods that are boxed or in a tin can and can be stored literally for years. They do not understand that these things really aren't good for them because it's all they know. The cardboard box has more nutrition than what's inside. I do try to be patient but when I start to wear thin, I recommend reading material like Nina Planck, Joel Salatin, Mary Enig, etc. Some of these young parents don't even know what a farmer's market is, and have no idea that we have one here all summer long. To them, fresh food is a box of Stoufer's lasagna. I mean really, is this sad or what?

I'm anxious to see what becomes of the camel milk market. Boxed almond, soy and/or rice milks certainly aren't healthy options, so I think the innovation shown by Desert Farms is encouraging.

Shelly-D.'s picture

My dad used to call pasteurized milk "dead milk" and wouldn't go near it. Maybe that term - "dead milk"- would wake them up - and that UHTP is like embalming a person - they'll last forever, but there's nothing living there any longer.

There is an interesting interview about the healing properties of camel milk at http://oneradionetwork.com/healing-modalites/dr-millie-hinkle-nd-medicin.... Dr. Millie Hinkle, ND of Camel Milk USA talks about how camel's milk has been used to heal autism, Gulf War Syndrome, and other diseases. Because raw milk is not universally legal and available in the USA, her research has been with pasteurized camel's milk.

I wonder if camel's milk is like goat's milk in that the fat doesn't separate out and form a cream. Some people feel it's the homogenization of cow's milk rather than the pasteurization that causes the most harm.

It was said in the interview that the most potent milk of the camel is in the first 6 months. Camels are different from cows and goats as they will only release milk if there is a suckling baby camel. In the videos of Desert Farms that Sylvia linked to, the owner said that you only had 90 seconds to get milk from the camel at each milking. Making a profit off of milk products from camels seems to me to be a difficult business proposition.

Deborah - Pacifica's picture

So sorry that I have been away from this blog for some time, too much going on both professionally and personally, but I have kept up with checking in from time to time to keep abreast of the new postings and information. I'm glad to see the subject of camel's milk come up in here. My grandmother was a big promoter of camel's milk, she always said that it was so rich in nutrition, always stated that a person could live a highly healthful and have a long life on just camel's milk, dates and periodic roasted lamb's meat. I had thought it was just an 'old wives' tale until I had researched it many years ago. Coinsidently, just last week one of the physician's that I was working with who grew up in the mid-east confirmed that it was always known in her culture that living on just camel's milk, dates and occassional roasted lamb/goat meat contributed to high health and longevity! Who'd a thought!!

mark mcafee's picture

I am still patiently awaiting for a call from Walib. I hope he calls.

I was at a California Dairy Campaign meeting in Turlock last evening. The discussion of milk advertizing came up and this video was shared with the group of organic and mostly conventional farmers. The comment was this..."this is the most disturbing advertizement we had ever seen". This was the official advertizement that was supposed to get more fluid milk sales???!!

Not sure about anyone else, but in my observation, this shows the true disconnect and pyschosis of the Milk Promotions effort. Perhaps this is what the gut-brain disconnect and disfunction actually looks like when made into an advertizement and video? This is what happens to the gut-brain when fluid pasteurized milk is consumed! http://extramustard.si.com/2014/05/25/indy-500-ad-milk/

All of the dairymen at the meeting just shook their heads in disbelief that their "check-off dollars" were spent this way to try and promote their fluid pasteurized milk sales which are dropping every year. Is this the last horrah for fluid pasteurized milk? The video seems to say so.

mark mcafee's picture

Just had a great call from Marlin Troyer, the owner of the "Camel Milk Association" in Michigan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v66SBumnVag

He has done a great job of producing raw camels milk for many years and has the tests to prove it. I was really excited to see how he posted his bacteria tests on his website. The organization and cleanliness of his facilities was also very impressive!! He will be applying for RAWMI LISTING this week and agrees that transparency of information to the consumer is critical. He also shared with me that he knows Walid quite well. He said that Walid is young and fresh out of college trying to make his fortune as a Saidi camels milk seller but has much to learn and appreciate about the world of raw milk and even Camels milk. With that said...I really want to talk with Walid so he can get a better grasp of what he is doing. Promotion and marketing must be based in truth, data and fact. The youthful exerberance of our young Camels milk student, out to make his fortune, has perhaps not yet experienced the hard knocks of reality. This is the USA and we have expectations of researched grounded truth and fundamental integrity. When some one claims that pasteurization kills the bad and preserves the good bacteria...that is the biggest red flag I have ever seen.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

"Marlin Troyer, the owner of the "Camel Milk Association" in Michigan. " "He said that Walid is young and fresh out of college trying to make his fortune as a Saidi camels milk seller but has much to learn and appreciate about the world of raw milk and even Camels milk. "

When supposed "professional" people insinuate that others are ignorant and unappreciative. Their insulting words makes those 'professionals' look like playground bullies. They are not who I would promote to do business with. Good thing word of mouth spreads fast and well. I'll be sure and let people know what was said and quote what you said he said. I wouldn't bother talking to those who insult me either, they aren't worthy of my time.

MarlinTroyer's picture

Hi Sylvia
Please read my comment below! I will also respond here.
We all have much to learn and he would agree with that, how ever I had no intentions to make him sound naïve but rather was talking to a well experienced farmer (Mark) about raw milk. we learn together and it is true he is fresh out of college this is no insult but rather a compliment starting his own thing right out of college, It was said in defense of some of the mistakes that need to be corrected.
As for trying to make his fortune he is asking for investors and there is nothing wrong with making enough money to feed your self and a bit more, how ever this wording is construing what I said, Here is what he is doing, Making a business of reselling and wholesaling camel milk and yes there needs to be profit.
I respect your comment above.
Best
Marlin

Sylvia Gibson's picture

Marlin,

I was being facetious (shame on me) towards Mark's post. I know words and meanings can be misconstrued, whether deliberately or unintentionally, at times it is difficult to tell. I have no intention of repeating Marks words in regards to you or your endeavors. My flippancy was directed at his tirade towards Walid. My apologies if it caused you any concern.

mark mcafee's picture

Sylvia,

When I was younger, I was marched into the office of the Department of Health Services in Sacramento and fined $20,000 dollars for posting a true testimonial about OPDC raw milk on our website. The fine was negotiated down to $8000 which we paid. My point is this....the Desert Farms website is incredibly misleading to any consumer and the author is simply not informed and using careless references and misstating facts. Where are the raw milk police to repremand the author and his claims at Desert Farms? It is not true that pasteurization kills only the bad and lets the good bacteria live. Desert Farms collects camels milk from all sorts of places....and they are telling the CDFA that they are pasteurizing. In order to legally pasteurize, the operator must be permitted and Grade A. There is so much misleading information at this website. It is confusing, unfair, missleading etc.... I am not going to sit here and let those things be said. I do not care about how some of you may feel. When you stand for something, you stand up and say something. Priciples matter. Walid has not called me and that says so much. Marlin Troyer did call me. That also says tons! I do agree that professionals should never put down others to place themselves higher. That is not what is going in here. Recognizing and stating the truth of the matter is what is going on here.

David Gumpert's picture

Mark,
In all fairness, Walid Abdul-Wahab did respond to your email query of a couple days ago with a lengthy email earlier today, that I and Cat Berge were copied on. He indicated he wasn't in a position to call you because he is traveling in Europe, but wanted to talk once he returned to the U.S. shortly.

Since I was only cc'd, I don't feel it's my place to quote from the email. But I will say that he explained his view on camel milk standards as well as on testing. He also indicated he had joined the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense fund and had anticipated potential regulatory issues that might come up. 

I can see where you might be irritated with some things on his web site, and his view on raw-vs-pasteurized camel milk, but I don't think that is reason to be characterizing Abdul-Wahab as an inexperienced money-grubbing kid. He sounds pretty mature and like someone who has done a fair amount of due diligence. He also sounds as if he is conscientious in working with dairy farmers.

I think it's you who has said more than once that those in the raw dairy business--whether selling publicly or privately, whether selling goat or cow milk (or, now, camel milk) should stand together....that if we attack each other, we simply make it easier for the opponents of raw dairy to do their dirty work. 

mark mcafee's picture

Fair enough. I did not see any emails come though to me today.

I asked a very simple question. How can raw also be pasteurized? How can pasteurization kill the bad and preserve the good bacteria?

I am not the raw milk police. But I know what the truth is and I will stand up when I see it challenged.

The best path forward is to allow some time to pass and let Walid have a chance to think things over and call me when he gets back from his international travels.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

"Many people prefer raw because some nutritional and enzymatic structures in the milk are so powerful in their raw state. They may be somewhat denatured by the heat if cooked, making it difficult or even impossible, for our bodies to absorb the benefits at their full potential. Other people prefer the assurance of pasteurized (heated) milk to kill any unknown organisms."

His web site did NOT say raw & pasteurized were the same, nor that boiling preserved anything. He basically pointed out the differences and reasons why boiling came to be. The page does it without over use of words, as we all know when words are over used people don't read or listen. Short and to the point, that's key. If people want to know more they'll ask.

He isn't pushing either method, he is leaving the choices to the consumer, as it should be. (If only tptb would see the same light with gmo labeling)

http://desertfarms.com/pages/why-raw-milk

Sylvia Gibson's picture

I think the comments from David's link below speaks volumes of what people are wanting and not wanting. People want to be able to make their own choices without any interference from anyone. I am all for educating people, teach what you know and respect their choices. ( I've given plenty of flu shots, I gave written information and talked with the patients about their health and vaccinations. I did not impart my beliefs on the patient and did NOT try to sway them in any way. It was their choice and I abide by that choice.)

http://thecompletepatient.com/article/2012/january/11/words-wordswhy-raw...

http://m.jsonline.com/224651091.htm?page=1#comment143224036
LaDolceVita Sep 23, 2013 6:54 AM
"Vernon's case was a huge victory for Liberty, and those that despise Liberty, DATCP, RAWMI, and WRMA, feel the need to trick us into giving up our Liberty for state regulated safety with unsubstantiated fear mongering. So do not fall for the propaganda going around the Wisconsin raw milk world that we need government regulation, or we need RAWMI to be the non-governmental agency ensuring the milk is safe, or that the WRMA is about food freedom. Wake up to the lies everyone, it is all about control, egos, and you having limited, government approved food choices. Do we really need to have the 'experts' telling us how or where we can obtain the perfect nutritious foods that the Creator perfectly designed? Do we need regulation that is like California's and creates $18 per gallon raw milk? Wake up Wisconsin before all your freedoms are regulated away and you are all good mindless slaves to DATCP, RAWMI, WRMA, or any other alphabet soup group that wants to control you through consensus with their all warm and fuzzy pre-planned outcomes to their goal of empowering DATCP, and criminalizing freedom. These comments are attacking Vernon for no reason other than to bolster support for a raw milk bill that does nothing to support his court victory. I read this article this morning and it disgusts me how Senator Grothman lies about his bill, "In order to protect farmers such as Hershberger" (protect him from DATCP by giving DATCP jurisdiction??? Really, Glen? I will not fall for his Orwellian double speak, and I hope you won't either.) Walker will sign this raw milk bill, only because it will destroy those family farms that are still operating and it will give government control over your food. Adolph Hitler said 'Control the food and you control the people'.....looks like Wisconsin government is taking another note out of Fascism's playbook. "

Walid Abdul-Wahab's picture

Sylvia, thank you for your contribution to this post. I never thought your comments were an attack, in fact you have been the most supportive and I thank you for that :)

mark mcafee's picture

Just recieved a very long and heart felt email from Walid as he is traveling in the middle east right now.

Let me start by saying....Walid is doing some pioneering work with camels milk. His efforts have international overtones with cross cultural implications. Camels raw milk consumers may not be like OPDC raw milk consumers. My ssumptions that the same standards or consumer critical thinking may apply are perhaps wrong. I am going to take this opportunity to publically apologize to Walib right here and reserve my critical comments and thoughts for a later date. What I have learned in the very very harsh battle for cows raw milk...may not apply to Camels raw milk. I have become a purist in the science, the regulatory culture and in the consumer doctrine surrounding cow raw milk. All of these lessons do not fit well in the case of camels raw milk with its FDA exemptions and CDFA support...clearly I am a little shocked and my commentary is perhaps premature. Everything that applies to cows raw milk ie...safety, direct farmer connection, labeling, regulatory mandates...do not seem to directly apply to camels milk. This elicited a visceral reaction from deep inside of me as the wounds and lessons of 15 years of raw milk battle including safety issues are still painful at times.

Walid...you also provide me with one of the greatest arguments I could have ever been provided as to the double standard and arbitrary nature of CFR 1240.61 and the barriers to interstate commerce of raw cows milk. Again....let me apologize for my reaction to things at your website that completely conflict with my experience, training, and beliefs. I wish you all the best!

Mark

Walid Abdul-Wahab's picture

Thank you Mark

MarlinTroyer's picture

Thanks for staying cool online Walid We will work together and need Mark onboard as a adviser! Cheers!

mark mcafee's picture

Pasteurized milk sickens school kids...

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/latest-news/dairy-milk-sold-to-henrico...

Notice that the word pasteurized never comes up in the article.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

I've tasted the milk from Marva Maid dairy, spit it out. I see they have not improved.

http://marvamaid.com/where-to-buy/

Sylvia Gibson's picture

Hit the post button too soon.

How can a stuck valve cause spoiled milk?

David Gumpert's picture

Nor do the terms "public health" or "contamination" or "recall" or "shutdown" or "testing" or "campylobacter" come up in the article. Just some milk that spoiled early and gave a bunch of kids gastrointestinal illness. No big deal. After all, since when do we get upset about a bunch of kids getting tummy aches from milk? 

 

 

Shelly-D.'s picture

Yes, the same double-standard again. And the "food safety experts" want to be considered "politically neutral," unbiased, and impartial? This is again another example that they are not. If this were raw milk involved, there would have been a huge campaign in the media from the CDC warning people about it, and yes, using all these dramatic terms. When it's pasteurized milk, not a peep.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

"And the "food safety experts" want to be considered "politically neutral," unbiased, and impartial?"

Ain't that the truth! If they keep telling their lies, people will accept it as truth.

Shelly-D.'s picture

So ... what are the odds that we hear the phrase "pasteurized milk outbreak" either from the CDC or in the mainstream media? Yup, I won't be holding my breath either.

mark mcafee's picture

Sylvia,

A stuck valve can easily cause or be caused by a resident biofilm. Bio films cause sticky or stuck valves all the time. If a valve has not been taken apart and it is sticky or dirty...it is a serious threat to safety. Pathogens of all sorts love to hang out in bio films and reemerge as a contaminant in a finished product or in this case post pasteurization contamination of FDA guaranteed safe perfect pasteurized milk. Bio films are survivors. They are the bugs or group of bugs that resisted the five log kill and the cleansers that were supposed to kill them. They are tough and they are pissed off looking for trouble.

mark mcafee's picture

A stuck valve can also be processors lingo and could mean other things as well. On the pasteurizer there is a automatic divert value....if either the time or the temperature does not achieve the required preset parameters....the value automatically diverts milk to avoid under pasteurized milk from being passed into the properly pasteurized side. So sticky or stuck valve could be industry jargon for holy....shit hit the fan also.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

So dirty equipment allowed crap to grow.

As David point out, there is a vast difference in "tummy ache" and E-coli, campy, salmonella, listeria, etc.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

It appears that wherever they get their food for the schools from, needs to be changed.

http://www.wric.com/story/25623536/tainted-lunches-discovered-at-colonia...

mark mcafee's picture

Sylvia

You will notice that the tummy ache and school kid pasteurized milk story made no reference to pathogens. It was kept very generic and calm. It was blamed on a shorter than normal shelf life. It is true that pasteurized milk becomes pretty ugly when it tried to ferment. It can't. It has few if any cultures to bring on fermentation like raw milk does. That is why processors are framed out about sticky divert valves and post pasteurization contamination. Listeria is the bad bug that loves the processing steps and thrives post heating. Since no bad bugs were mentioned one can only imagine. Politically supportive articles do not share negative details.

mark mcafee's picture

Sorry about misspelled words...fat fingers on my cell not a great tool for posting

MarlinTroyer's picture

I just now 9:10 PM saw this Article and the exchange that followed! I am shocked what I see.
First let me explain I had Applied for the RAWMI program 2 years ago and they were not set up yet to deal with what I had, so I was calling Mark as a contact to see if I could reapply under our new farm, I had no idea this was happening at the same time nor did I have knowledge of this article, I can see how he thought I was calling because of this but I read another camel article Mark posted on about RAWMI prompting me to call.
Second I can speak for my self and would not go so low as have someone comment for me much less misrepresent what I said, so I will not comment on What Mark said I said, I can speak for myself. I was not the one bringing up Walid and had no intention to in our conversation nor did I intend to attacked his person.
Third I consider all the camel farmers and the camel milk promoters a team and would never publicly lash out like this, It is true I have Issues with a few things on Desert Farms Site and was an am in talks with the farm and walid about these issues to get things on a better footing. I will not comment on the things I take issue with as we were dealing with this privately so far.
Fourth I was instrumental in connecting Walid with the farms and support him marketing the Amish farmers milk as long as things are above board and transparent and no overstatements and all misleading claims are avoided such as 100% grass fed and others.
Fifth I do not view Walid as a competitor but rather on the camel milk support team, I am against infighting but will speak out where I see error.
I also Highly regard Mark from organic pastures and the great good he is doing for the cause and respect his insights and except his apology.
I will say the camel market is just emerging and patients and support is needed for the farmers in their growth and safety standards which we endeavor to encourage and be the leader in milk safety at camelmilkassociation.org
Sorry for all the improper wording I am not a writer.
All the best to the raw milk fans and producers! Cheers!!
Marlin Troyer

MarlinTroyer's picture

This is the article I had seen, And the remarks about RAWMI in the debate was what caused me to call Mark.

MarlinTroyer's picture
Sylvia Gibson's picture

I believe team work is key for success. I believe that most everyone's goal is to produce a healthy safe product. I believe that there are various ways to produce that healthy product. There is no 'one size fits all'. Sharing knowledge is important. Accepting the visions of others is important also.

The government is obviously not there to assist and teach raw dairy farmers about sanitation,etc. This makes it imperative that both farmers and consumers work together to assure that the needed knowledge is shared. Life is definitely a learning experience.

mark mcafee's picture

Sylvia you are absolutely right.

To be clear....there is no perfect way and no model that fits all. That is the basis of RAWMI standards. Each farmer has his own specialized RAMP plan that HE or SHE created for his set of specific risks and conditions. In the past, I am absolutely certain that no farmer woke up one morning and said to himself...today we are going to have an outbreak and make some of our dear consumers sick. No...

However, that relief milker, or systems failure or biofilm or lack of knowledge or other condition did happen and that farmer did go to sleep that night with trouble and worry in his heart with people sick.

RAWMI is not the raw milk police, instead it is a raw milk community with shared values. It is a friendly farmers and consumers tool that assures low risk, lets every one sleep well at night. Llowers insurance rates, gains the attention and respect of regulators and researchers and establishes once and for all that raw milk is not inherently unsafe...when it is done well. This week NPR is doing a special on RAWMI and the vision of raw milk all Americans. A central theme will be....how can raw milk be safe or very low risk in the future. After all....the science is here strongly suggesting that raw milk is good for us. Doctor Oz even said so....but, what each study concludes with is a brief disclaimer that says something like:

the researchers of this study still can not recommend raw milk consumption because of the inherent risks of its consumorion.

RAWMI is doing the work to change this. In the future the studies will say....raw milk has been shown to have certain medical benefits and when produced under certain standards and conditions it has been shown to be a low risk food. As RAWMI broadens its membership and adds LISTED producers, each of those producers adds to the culture of mentoring others and teaching high standards of raw milk production to everyone. Everyone wins...especially the consumers and their farmers.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

"A RAWMI spokesman said the milk that RAWMI members produces is not the raw milk seen 50 to 100 years ago. They acknowledge that raw milk regulated by state officials and produced under strict standards is safe and beneficial to those who drink it."

The above statement is taken from the cached link below. There are many, and I am among them, who believe that the govt et al are not needed to regulate their raw milk. Now if you have a large dairy like Mark and sell to the public in stores, then yes regulation is needed. The smaller dairies, that aren't selling in stores don't need to be policed. That is NOT to say the farmers shouldn't have basic standards of sanitation, etc.

“It’s not surprising there are infections in places where raw milk is unregulated because it’s a black market, a free-for-all,” said a RAWMI spokesman."

With statements like this, it only serves to further alienate farmers from RAWMI, Sounds like the spokesman is saying, if you don't join us, then you are in a "black market, a free-for-all" Not good PR.

Having seen Patties farm, I hold every dairy to her standards.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FJQkqP1gv1AJ:www.me...

"Raw milk still in the spigotEvery couple of years, a controversy over raw milk versus pasteurized milk raises its head. The last time the disagreement flared in the news was 2008 when legislation was proposed in 21 states to outlaw the sale and distribution of raw milk for human consumption. Here we are, five years later, and the issue is in the news again.

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) re-released a report recently warning pregnant women and children against drinking raw milk. The AAP also said it supports a country-wide ban on the sale of raw milk because of the potential for bacterial illnesses. The group’s statement went on to say that it supports federal health authorities “in endorsing the consumption of only pasteurized milk and milk products for pregnant women, infants and children.”

Thirty states currently allow raw milk to be sold. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration prohibits the interstate transportation of raw milk for human consumption, but it allows the transport of some labeled raw cheeses.

Proponents say that raw milk provides health benefits including protection against lactose intolerance and asthma. Proponents also claim that when the animals are raised properly and the milk is treated carefully, raw milk poses no more danger to human health than other organically produced foods. In fact, some scientists have found that organic whole milk offers more of the fatty acids good for the heart than pasteurized milk. However, health officials in Minnesota disagree. They warn that raw milk could be making more people sick than previously understood.

The contradictory assessments may be confusing, with milk producers and manufacturers of pasteurization equipment lining up behind the AAP, and Raw Milk Institute (RAWMI) members taking the opposite end of the field. A RAWMI spokesman said the milk that RAWMI members produces is not the raw milk seen 50 to 100 years ago. They acknowledge that raw milk regulated by state officials and produced under strict standards is safe and beneficial to those who drink it.

In states like Minnesota where raw milk is illegal, there is no way to ensure it gets processed safely. In California where raw milk is legal and subject to inspector oversight, there have been very few cases of illness. “It’s not surprising there are infections in places where raw milk is unregulated because it’s a black market, a free-for-all,” said a RAWMI spokesman.

So which side is a person supposed to come down on? As with any issue related to health and wellness, before you make a decision about what kind of milk to drink, do some thorough research, talk with friends and family, and seek medical guidance from your physician."

Shelly-D.'s picture

“ 'It’s not surprising there are infections in places where raw milk is unregulated because it’s a black market, a free-for-all,' said a RAWMI spokesman."

Mark, this is a contradiction in terms and I hope that this was not you who said this because this is not true. Here in Canada, the black market exists BECAUSE raw milk is regulated, and those regulations do ALL these things I list above.

Raw milk is often regulated out of existence. Regulations can be passed that ban farmer-to-consumer commerce in raw milk, make it a "health hazard," make it illegal to sell to anyone other than a processing plant, etc. This is what bans raw milk here in BC - REGULATIONS:

- The "Health Hazards Regulation": passed under the Public Health Act
- The "B.C. Milk Marketing Board Regulation" passed under the Natural Product Marketing Act which gives the BCMMB total control over all milk in BC.

The same across Canada - same laws, different names. Raw milk is regulated - the government has passed regulations to BAN it. Hence, it is not lack of regulation that caused the black market - it IS regulation.

Shelly-D.'s picture

If anyone is curious and wants to see a complete list of the provincial laws (Acts and Regulations) of Canada controlling raw milk - just go to http://www.canlii.org/en/ca and look up each province, searching on the term "milk" or "unpasteurized milk."

Shelly-D.'s picture

Typo - please ignore the words "and those regulations do ALL these things I list above."

mark mcafee's picture

Sylvia,

RAWMI is a choice made by farmer. RAWMI is a farm tool just like a website or a tractor. It does work to show the world what kind of hard work is being done to feed the consumers.

Need I remind everyone of Foundation Farms or even Tennesee. I will give some serious praise to Marcy in Tennesee. When she had a problem, she got educated sought help and mentoring from RAWMI and now she is doing great even though she is not Listed by RAWMI.