Hidden Message in MI AG’s Court Shenanigans: Baker Hog Case Far from Over

Harold Martin, the Michigan assistant attorney general, making believe he's not listening to Mark Baker's lawyer, during arguments last Wednesday before Judge William Fagerman. (Photo by Randy Buchler)I have found myself thinking a lot about last week’s courtroom antics of Harold Martin, the Michigan assistant attorney general, which have been viewed more than 1,000 times already on YouTube.  While it’s tempting to simply label Martin as unprofessional and less than competent, I think there was much more to it than that. I explore some of the less obvious messages in an Open Letter to Martin. 

 

To Harold Martin
Assistant Attorney General, Michigan

 

There has been a fair amount of discussion on Facebook and on my blog as to whether your courtroom outbursts in advance of the judge’s appearance last Wednesday were spontaneous or planned, and whether your antics might cause you to lose your job. I’ve been one of those who has suggested your Clint Eastwood imitation was planned, though I do allow for the fact it couldn’t have been completely scripted, since you couldn’t have known your outburst toward hog farmer Mark Baker and then toward the crowd would be video recorded. I’m not sure it matters—what’s important is your intent and the mindset you displayed in a public setting....a mindset that pervades the MI AG's office and the DNR. 

 

Here are three messages that came through loud and clear: 

 

-This has become a grudge match. The fact that you, the defendant lawyer, directly approached Baker, the plaintiff, to scold him for posting messages criticizing Michigan officials, clearly reflected the depth of state resentment and upset by your agency and the MI Department of Natural Resources, which you were representing. You must know that it is borderline unethical for the defense lawyer to approach the plaintiff without the plaintiff lawyer’s knowledge and permission. In the courtroom last Wednesday, you ignored Baker’s lawyer and directly challenged him about YouTube videos he has broadcast about the case over the last two years. You wanted to know why he broadcast his complaints about the DNR, why he had the gall to question your tactics that have effectively put him out of business and nearly put his family out on the streets. When Baker told you that you could have responded publicly, your response was gruff and threatening: “You don’t get it, do you?” (You don't get it, that we have absolute power over you--that is what you meant, right?)

 

My guess is you expected two years ago, when this whole matter came up about the state’s order banning all pigs it considered “wild” or “feral”  that Baker would roll over like most Michigan farmers and simply obey the order. Baker surprised you by not caving.  In suing the state, Baker did something you can’t forgive him for: he kept the issue alive, defying your desire to satisfy your corporate sponsors and dispense with it. 


When Judge William Fagerman last year ruled in favor of Baker’s suit, seeking a trial to clarify the DNR’s Invasive Species Order, (with the trial scheduled to begin next week) you, the MI AG and the DNR, suffered a huge defeat by being ordered to appear in a public court and explain the genetic purification orders represented by the ISO. There was no way you were going to try to present a losing case in an open court, and so you very reluctantly did the next worst thing—you gave Baker a victory, but reserved your options to go after other farmers as you see fit. But, of course, you hold a special grudge now against Baker, and as such feel it is important to humiliate him as a way of sending a message to other farmers who might gain inspiration from him. 

 

-You have split loyalties. Last Wednesday in court, you refused to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. Now, I sympathize with you on that one. Like most Americans going through public school, I recited the Pledge pretty much every day at the start of school. I could never understand why I had to say it every single day,  and I still can’t, any more than I can understand why I have to stand for the Star Spangled Banner before every Major League baseball game I attend. But I recognize these rituals for what they are—small rituals that are part of our culture, and I resist the temptation to remain sitting and make a major issue out of something that is pretty minor in the general scheme of things. But you, a government employee on duty,  couldn’t resist the temptation to refuse on the Pledge. Why? For a very simple reason: You can’t entirely pledge allegiance to the U.S. and its flag when you also have an allegiance to the large corporate pork producers that call the shots for the DNR and the AG….much like food corporations call the shots in any number of other areas, like genetically-modified seeds and food, feeding antibiotics on a routine basis to farm animals,  and raw milk. 

 

In the courtroom, when a spectator asked why you wouldn’t stand for the Pledge, you turned around and asked, “Are you questioning my patriotism?”  “Yes,” the person responded. You made a feeble, condescending effort effort to engage the audience, but your intent was to let them know who was really in charge. 

 

-Remember who controls the legal system. Not only did you refuse to stand for the Pledge, and borderline violate legal ethics by semi-threatening Mark Baker, you were disrespectful to the crowd of people in the courtroom. At the end of the actual session, where you caved and publicly sanctioned Baker raising pigs in violation of the ISO, so as to convince the judge to dismiss Baker’s suit, you were disdainful of the court itself, as you mocked Baker: “What do you think of your court now?” 


While you were pissed at Baker for getting judicial approval to operate in contravention of the ISO, you know how tough you can make it for him to get that judicial approval to stick. You were cleverly slippery and noncommittal in an exchange with the judge. You said at one point, "The makeup of the herd is one-seventh Russian boar. I don't know if that is on the record. I am not saying we won't apply the ISO. I am saying the ISO doesn't apply" in this situation. So....any change to Baker's herd, and watch out for the DNR, right, to enforce its genetic purification model? 


You regarded everyone in that courtroom--Baker, his supporters, on up to the judge--with utter contempt, as if they were fools to think they might get satisfaction from an American court of law. In that respect, your disdain of the Pledge of Allegiance makes sense, since its final lines proclaim your country “….indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Liberty and justice have nothing to do with what you do as a lawyer employed by the state.  

 

So, no, I don’t think you’ll be in any trouble with your bosses..at least so long as that video doesn’t go viral and create a cascade of citizen complaints to the Michigan Attorney General’s office. If anything, you’ve probably gotten some kudos back at the office for standing up to the kooks and weirdos in that court, and for “putting Mark Baker in his place.” Even if Baker gave it to you.  

 

Moreover, you knew well that the DNR is committed to continuing its campaign against Baker and other hog farmers, as a DNR official suggested to a local paper after the judge dismissed the case. 

 

“DNR Public Information Officer Ed Golder said this is exactly the outcome the department wanted.

“ ‘Our understanding is he does not have prohibited pigs, so there is no longer need to pursue this in court,’ Golder said. ‘We're very pleased with the ruling. The state's natural resources will be protected against harmful invasive species.’

“Golder said if it came to light that Baker still possessed invasive pigs, the department would continue to enforce the order regardless of Wednesday's decision.”

To which Baker said in a new YouTube statement, that he understood the longer term ramifications of the state's actions and the judge’s decision: “We think they (the DNR) is protecting something. They do not want to go in a court of law with this….These guys have an agenda they are following. After all we have gone through, we are back to square one.” 

I know, Harold Martin, that you are likely chuckling at Baker’s sudden realization that his days of tangling with the AG and DNR aren’t over. Just know that Mark Baker is one tough guy, and the people behind him are increasingly savvy about what you and your henchmen at DNR and the pork industry are up to. You may have more of a fight on your hands than you realize.

I hope Baker takes Gary Cox’s suggestion, and seeks compensation from the state for upending his business and family over the last two years. I also hope he continues to resist state efforts to possibly intimidate him. As Lynn said in a comment following my previous post, about meeting Baker some time back: “I knew here was a man who would not cower, nor concede, to the injustice of the MI Invasive Species Order. I kept thinking how unfair his situation: after serving his country for 20 years in the U.S. Air Force, now creating a life for himself and support his family by farming, this?” 

I hope you, Mr. Ass’t AG, heard the people in the courtroom last week when they told you in no uncertain terms to turn away, and not mess with them. 

Ora Moose's picture

Wow. No mess I can guess. Can i change my stage name now? This is getting too Orable and I may be gone soon anyway so it wont matter

rawmilkmike's picture

Tone and the flippant attitude of Don Schaffner of Rutgers and food safety professor Ben Chapman of North Carolina State University and now Harold Martin, the Michigan assistant attorney general: The tone of any raw milk or pig discussion tends to be set by the aggressors. http://foodsafetytalk.com/food-safety-talk/2014/2/8/food-safety-talk-55-...
...
Where are all these angry outspoken raw milk producers and consumers Don could have been referring to?

If any negativity is seen in the raw milk community it is not of their doing. It starts with lobbying from raw milk's competitors and harassment from regulators. Think about what these people are doing.

They are dipping in someone else's business, looking over our farmer's shoulders, telling them how to do their job, criticizing a product and production methods they admittedly know nothing about and admittedly have know desire to learn about.

They are calling us liars and telling us what to eat. What ever happened to “The customer's always right.”? These regulators are supposed to be working for us.

This is a battle between health-minded consumers and powerful privet organizations trying to control the market and limit our choices. Don and Ben have already said they don't want to talk to us, they want to go over our heads rather than having to explain themselves to us.

What do we really have to say to each other?
What is the purpose of the conversation?
What do people do with junk-mail?
Can't we put these people on our no call list?
Can't we just put up a “No Soliciting”sign?
Why are they so intent on telling us what to eat?
What could possibly be their motivation?
They are not just advertising their product.
They are forcing us to buy their product because their advertizing is not working.

Ora Moose's picture

rmMike: tooo many questions, too little time. I do see here you coming from though, and appreciate the teachin energy. Does Mark approve? We need more cows less bulls. Ask me tomorrow

Ora Moose's picture

"what you and your henchmen at DNR and the pork industry are up to. You may have more of a fight on your hands than you realize ( stitch...) I hope you, Mr. Ass’t AG, heard the people in the courtroom last week when they told you in no uncertain terms to turn away, and not mess with them."

Truer words were never spoken. Thank you for you courage David, but I still worry about people covering your back, I used to think I had that too until.

Ora Moose's picture

Recently. Nothing to do w/milk

Sylvia Gibson's picture

I am reminded of the horrible treatment Mark McAffee and his family suffered needlessly because his father stood up for what he believed. I do believe Mr. Baker should be compensated, but at what expense and to whom? I sincerely hope that he is able to weigh all possible outcomes to include repercussions towards his family. Mr. baker isn't the only one involved in this fight.

The state is only regrouping to fight another fight. The video needs to go viral, send it to news stations, social web sites, etc. Put it out there. Mr. Ass’t AG will become a laughing stock. I do caution that his behavior reminded me of one with PTSD, or other psych issue. He demonstrated rather erratic and explosive behavior. These behaviors can be dangerous, these type of people have been known to attack those who they "believe" have harmed them, whether real or imagined. Going postal.

The farmers and consumers do need to form some sort of corporation to stand together. There is strength in numbers. The more people who hear and see what is happening, the more who will stand with the farmer.

rawmilkmike's picture

“Angela Y. Davis, is shown with Roger McAfee, the Fresno farmer who put up land for bail, with McAfee's children in San Jose, California, March 2, 1972. Kids left to right: Mark, 10; Adam, 8 and Andrew, 5, and McAfee's wife Darlene at far left. (AP Photo/Robert W. Klein)”
http://bigstory.ap.org/content/angela-davis-1972-2
...
http://www.jetcityorange.com/angela-davis/

http://search.proquest.com//docview/304801850

http://www.bhamwiki.com/w/Angela_Davis

http://www.alternativecomplementarymedicine.com/another-government-attac...

Kind of like Mark posting bail for James Stewart after the Rawesome raid.

before anyone gets nostalgic about how mellow Comrade Angela is, now aging gracefully ...get a few facts. Think for yourself. She wasn't on America's Most Wanted List for nothing : she conspired to kidnap people at gunpoint. She was an accomplice before and after the fact to a crime in which 3 of the victims died in a shootout. You want to talk about 'domestic terror-ism'? Angela Davis was the real thing ; as hard-core red fascist as they come. Murdering innocent people as a means to a political end.
too harsh for this nice little group of farm folk chatters? I'm going to say it again, til I get it across ; the Campaign for REAL MILK is engaged in a life & death struggle with race traitors in high places, who are bent on implementing the Communist Manifesto in Ham-merica via industrialization of agriculture, as well as the communist agenda to compel the masses to live in 'rabbit-hutches' in cities.
since its as near as a couple of keystrokes, have a look at the OTHER photo of Che Guevera, the much less popular one ;after the shootou ... the only good commie is a dead commie

Ora Moose's picture

Gordon that's like saying the only good deer are dead dear in the headlights. So what's the plural of deer? Are deer communist? I'd never thought to ask myself that before. The Farm Folk Chatters, weren't they the guys that invented rap music? Harsh wasn't that an early hit for Deep Purple?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-x7RqRF8Pk&feature=kp

Nice cow cuddling dreams to you all, spring will be springing soon and remember all you can really ever hope for is to wake up tomorrow

rawmilkmike's picture

“Dog Whistle Politics: How Coded Racial Appeals Have Reinvented Racism and Wrecked the Middle Class by Ian Haney Lopez”

Listen - Aired January 22, 2014 - 8:00am;
http://www.wpr.org/shows/racism-politics

Read - Posted on 2013-12-12;
http://ebookee.org/Dog-Whistle-Politics-How-Coded-Racial-Appeals-Have-Re...

Watch, Published on Jan 14, 2014;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqKHc8Fmaxg

Angela Davis guilt or innocence wasn't the point, it was the similarity between “Mark McAfee posting bail for James Stewart” and “Roger McAfee posting bail for Angela Davis.

rawmilkmike's picture
D. Smith's picture

At the last link you provided (healthy traditions) I see our old friends Amanda Rose and Kristen Papac are at it even back in 2011 trying to trash Mark McAfee (in the comments section). More dogs with bones.

Sylvia Gibson's picture

To be fair, Mark did outsource and not inform consumers, plus his marketing agenda at that time was less than honest. I think there was also an issue about how much grasses vs grains they were fed. I haven't kept up, so don't know what has changed.

I think around that time of outsourcing, there was some contaminated milk or cream. Anyhoo, it all appears to have been corrected.

I think many people also don't understand that different cows give different tasting milk. Claravale has all Jerseys (I think) where OP has mostly holsteins. Plus what they eat, etc. They are used to the swill that's been adulterated sold in stores. Like I said before, it appears most people believe that store bought dairy goes straight from the cow to the pasturizer to be boiled then to the bottles and on to the stores. Don't ya know that ALL cows milk must taste the same and have the exact same amount of milk fat (or no milk fat)? Sheeple.

rawmilkmike's picture

Reading the comments is even more informative than the video.
...
“the Nugget Market and Downtown Sacramento Farmers Market and Davis Farmers Market. In the late summer of 2011 OP decided to drop all those venues”
...
“owner isn't really interested in selling at ANY retail stores”

Sylvia Gibson's picture

I haven't been to Sacramento since early 2011 and OP was selling in Nuggets, co-op and at the huge farmers market on Sunday mornings at that time. It had recently started selling at that farmers market, I think fall 2010. If they don't get enough sales, then it isn't feasible to stay there. It is a business, not a charity after all.
I would be surprised if not selling at the Nugget store, but then Whole Foods quit selling raw milk years ago, so it is possible the store itself had something to do with that.

Here's a list of stores selling it. Plug in other zip codes and you get other places.
http://www.organicpastures.com/cgi-bin/FindStores.pl?zip=93706

rawmilkmike's picture

Children are not more susceptible to foodborne illness(Stomach flu). The elderly, pregnant women, and the immune depressed are more susceptible to disease, period. There is no reason to think that raw milk will increase that susceptibility. Furthermore aren't most raw milk consumers children and aren't children more likely to be taken to the doctor when they get sick, there by causing adult illness to be much more under reported.

Diarrhea is a symptom, not a disease. The acute form lasts only a day or two and usually isn't serious. It affects people of all ages, and some types are infectious. The average person may get acute diarrhea 3 to 5 times a year, and long-term effects are rare. Children under 5 years of age experience about 1 to 3 episodes of diarrhea every year.
http://bodyandhealth.canada.com/condition_info_details.asp?disease_id=224

Diarrhea can be caused by a variety of factors or agents; 2,247 medical conditions are said to cause diarrhea. The National Institute of Health report that the average adult in the US experiences acute diarrhea four times a year.
http://www.nafc.org/blog/incontinence-blog/slippery-slopes-combating-dia...

Most infections that cause diarrhea are quite contagious, spread by the fecal-oral route and by fomites(an inanimate object [as a dish, toy, book, doorknob, or clothing] that may be contaminated with infectious organisms and serve in their transmission). Most children will have diarrhea several times throughout childhood. Most children with diarrhea have a viral infection in the gastrointestinal tract. Rotavirus, adenovirus, and the Norwalk virus are common causes.
http://www.drgreene.com/articles/diarrhea/

People of all ages can get diarrhea. The average adult has a bout of diarrhea about four times a year.
http://www.liversociety.org/html/diarrhea_.html

churchlanefarm's picture

Mike

“Children are not any more susceptible to foodborne illness”.

Indeed children that are raised with care and love should naught be more susceptible to any illness. Unfortunately the reason why children have a tendency to reflect greater susceptible to illness is because they and their immune systems are the most violated by the medical profession and its vaccines and drugs.

Here is a little anecdotal evidence to consider.
My two eldest children out of desire to follow the doctor’s orders, although breast-fed, were also supplemented with formula (no raw cows milk), and received their full series of vaccines. Recurrent ear infections were an ongoing problem and antibiotics (amoxicillin) were regularly used to treat these infections. As a result they developed persistent diarrhea and had to be hospitalized and placed on IV.

In contrast, the next two children (the twins) whose mother passed away following their birth in the hospital, were one month premature and weighed between 4-5 pounds, were placed on raw milk as soon as I brought them home from the hospital. They were not vaccinated and received absolutely no drugs. I refused to bring them to see a doctor and they are now 27-year-old healthy adults with a life of their own.

The remaining children that were born after I remarried were breast-fed and when necessary supplemented with raw cows milk. They have not been vaccinated and have received no drugs of any kind. Of those remaining children only one has had to see a doctor because he broke his arm playing soccer.

Ken

Ora Moose's picture

Ken, I played soccer for over 50 years and never heard of anyone breaking an arm, but knee and ankle injuries were fairly common. Maybe it wasn't soccer that should be implicated but the running and falling down awkwardly? Regardless, I think your perspective on milk and doctors pretty much mirrors my own. I told my son when he was about 5 that he would never be allowed to play organized American Football or Hockey in school. Violence hurts but some people either can't see it or enjoy it kinda like eating at McDonalds on a regular basis.

churchlanefarm's picture

“Falling down awkwardly” would be an accurate description.
I’ve seen plenty of odd injuries in my time playing, coaching and watching sports.
Ken

Thanks Ken. Real world testimony from real people is priceless. Vaccinations must be a nightmare. Almost all my nieces and nephews have these weird food allergies and breathing problems. I grew up in suburban poverty with 11 people in one house, me and my siblings had rotten teeth and all, but none of these food allergies or breathing problems. I've concluded it has to be due to vaccinations. Reading comments here by Sylvia and others helped me figure it out. One of my nephews has 'autism" and I found a vid that convinces me this strange modern disease is caused by the mercury in vaccinations.

Speaking of establishment created disease, I've concluded the main cause of "heart disease" is hydrogenated oils. They try to work these into everything they can. Even lard (the only brand they sell here in the deep South lists the first ingredient not as "lard" but "hydrogenated lard"). Hydrogenated oils are artificially hardened and artificially harden your arteries. To pull off the trick, the establishment has been blaming good fats like eggs, lard, meats... For years I have heard that French people have 1/5 the heart disease of Americans, Did some digging and finally found an article on why French donuts taste so much better than American, French people wrote in saying it's because they don't use hydrogenated oils, they use real fats.

The medical doctor I referenced here last year, that traveled the world looking for natural cancer treatments, talked about how it is so often the case that if you look at a group of smaller studies, they will tell exactly the opposite story as the larger, well publicized ones ie don't trust "studies". The establishment routinely fakes studies.

To heal damaged blood vessels, what has come to me is hot peppers, such as cayenne and jalapeno. This came to me as a "message", as my Native friends would call it. But if you like written documentation, do some digging into heart benefits of using cayenne pepper. Natural 'chelation".

Sylvia Gibson's picture

Tomm,

I believe it is not just one thing that causes harm. Plus, what harms one, may not harm another. The media and the gov focus on JUST mercury (thermasol) in the vaccinations. There is a slew of other toxic ingredients too. To my knowledge, and I have not been able to find any research papers; there has been NO long term or short term studies on what all these ingredients do to a person. Plus, the amount of vaccinations given to babies and kids before they are 5 yrs old is a travesty. Take the Hepatitis vaccine; there is absolutely no reason to give that to a baby. Does the baby engage in drug use? have casual sex? questionable booze intake? eat is questionable food establishments? Hell no, so why give this series of 3 shots to a forming immune system? vaccines are just one example, people need to question and do their own research so they can make informed choices.

They one thing I learned in stats class was that you can skew the numbers to fit whatever you want.

Food can be medicine. I believe that medicine (pharm drugs) does have its place, I feel it is abused for profits and pushed by those who have $$$$ to gain from it. But, people for the last 50 or so yrs have been programed to believe that taking a pills is the best quick fix and quick already prepared meals are best for the Great American lifestyle. Sadly this lifestyle is what's causing illness and deaths.

Ora Moose's picture

Sylvia, we definitely agree on the function and profit aspect of drugs and medicine. I think I was bout 12 years old when I first heard of anyone in my hometown that had "cancer" now everyone seems to have it. Vaccines had their hey day and may have saved many lives back in the days of measles mumps chickenpox and malaria but when was the last time you heard of anyone having those diseases. Now it's hepatitis mercury and avian flu, whatever they can push on you to stock their coffers and share holders.

Modern day testing studies will not be done on anything food or technology wise not patentable that won't be funded by deep pockets so you do need to do your own research which is why we are here. Eat well, food IS medicine grow your own. Pills are for pill pushers.

Ora Moose's picture

Tom, one of my uncles loved really hot stuff (back when I didn't appreciate it) especially peppers and promoted them as best healthy food for you even though he also drank raw milk. I remember our trips to Salem harbor in the 60s to dig up clams from the beach sands and escargots from the rocks when the waters were theoretically cleaner and healthier than now. BTW fats are NOT bad for you, neither is cholesterol (what you ingest does not equal what your body retains or manufactures on it's own) or non-lab salt when used in moderation. In the days before industrial and home refrigeration, everything was salty as an ancient method of preservation. Weird old joke from my childhood that probably won't translate well "why is the sea salty?" "Because it has so much salt cod in it."

And yes, I can vouch from personal knowledge and experience that you should avoid vaccines at all cost.

churchlanefarm's picture

Tom

They use peanut oil as an excipient in vaccines, antibiotics, and other drugs.

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/allergies/vaccines-and-the-peanut-allergy...

“Have you ever wondered why so many kids these days are allergic to peanuts? Where did this allergy come from all of a sudden?
Before 1900, reactions to peanuts were unheard of. Today almost a 1.5 million children in this country are allergic to peanuts.
What happened? Why is everybody buying EpiPens now?”

Ken

D. Smith's picture

peanut oil is also used in vaccines and causes many children to have problems with peanut ingestion thereafter. Yes sir, EpiPens are the latest fad, just like it used to be with inhalers and ritalin. Ever know anyone who had a ritalin deficiency?

The manufacturers of Mazola Corn Oil are recently pushing it as if there's no tomorrow. Please educate your enemies as well as your friends about the dangers of these horrid oils. There are so many other good oils from which to choose. Avocado, walnut, coconut, red palm, etc. I do not advocate the use of flax oil but a lot of people do, but even rancid flax oil probably is better than the gmo corn used to make Mazola - and ethanol. =8/

Sylvia Gibson's picture

I didn't know peanuts had anything to do with vaccinations. Wow

Ken, yeah my brother's kid can't eat peanuts, he has a reaction.

Ora, take a closer look at the 'heyday" of vaccinations and you might conclude they have no place in medicine at all. I posted how in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, Price documents in the 1930s that people eating their natural, mineral rich diets were immune to tuberculosis, which was rampant around the world then, where people ate establishment slop food.

Sylvia, I was right with you, until you lumped in casual sex, with drug use, booze, and questionable eating establishments. One of the establishment's best kept secrets: casual sex is fundamental to the lifestyle of our closest relatives on this planet (brains-bottlenose dolphins, bodies-bonobos). What if touching is actually Good for our health? (you'll never hear that in "health class")

I don't want to sound outrageous here by suggesting to the group that living in harmony with Nature is actually good for our health, but I did post a lot last year debunking the HIV scam with testimony of Noble Prize winning scientists, the "neurosyphilis" scam by showing it is actually created by "treating" syphilis with mercury, etc etc. Since "stds" are basically not found in Nature, I have to conclude they are caused by something unnatural, such as psychosomatic illness (being taught endlessly that your genitals are "obscene"), severe mineral deficiency such as caused tuberculosis in the 1930s, antibiotic use killing off intestinal flora, etc.

The attack on sex and the attack on raw milk are surprisingly similar.

Ora Moose's picture

Tom, interesting perspective on vaccines, I just remember them as a pre-teen having them mandated in school. Then again, a lot of our young men were drafted and sent to wars in Angola Guinea Mozambique (Brasil even?) so it was word on the street that you needed protection from whatever they brought back.

And in those days we did not even have a "convenience store" in town, so you ate whatever you or your neighbors grew. No "establishment slop food" available except in the big cities so we were immune to that or maybe not. The best tasting fruit is that just fell off the tree, no paper towels or spray bottles ever heard of, and cleaning meant washing something in a running stream not a faucet. Those were the days, when maybe we were safer? I don't need no doctor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZMmV6xXYFw

Ora Moose's picture

And on another note Tom... we also didn't have any bathing suits so we all jumped in and swam in the river the town was named after https://www.google.com/#q=ponte+do+sor+portugal naked. Nobody was offended. It took me a really long time to coming close to understanding the American mindset of individual possession and repressive sexuality coverups.

Back then we were very happy if one kid had a ball of rolled up bunch of socks that we could all kick around and play! No nets necessary. But now I need my own useless non-food growing unproductive golf course in my front yard and irrigation system so I can pretend to be important and make you jealous. Profit and vanity is the American way.

D. Smith's picture

The weird times in which we now live bring all sorts of sex troubles, too. Including food!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/02/13/276453719/sexually-transmitt...

Just when you think things couldn't possibly get any more strange!

rawmilkmike's picture

tommculhane, I'm going to do for you what no one wants to do for me. I'm checking your math.
...
You said “Ancients would never have tuned things to wacked out numbers like that, they would use hertz, cycles per second” Tom, how would they have counted the cycles and what were their units of time? How did they measure frequency?
...
Are there musical seconds just as there are nautical miles? If not maybe there should be.
...
THE ANCIENT SOLFEGGIO FREQUENCIES
http://www.roelhollander.eu/en/tuning-frequency/Ancient-Solfeggio-Freque...
...
“The very first occurrence of an electronic device to measure frequency was ... the early Hewlett Packard audio oscillator production. The 500A, analog electronic frequency meter was described as follow in the 1943 catalog”
...
Italian, Galileo Galilei, discovered more of the properties of sound waves. He discovered that the frequency of the sound wave is the factor that determines what pitch the sound will have. He discovered this in or around the 1660s.”
...
“Pythagoras, the Greek philosopher and mathematician could be accredited to be the earliest researcher particularly on the vibrating aspects of the sound around 500 B.C. Further Archytas of Greece made studies on sound related with its pitch. Even the famous philosopher, Aristotle made suggestions that sound makes movements  and air carries it. But it was Galileo , the father of acoustics,who reveals to us that the characteristic that the frequency of the sound wave is the determining factor of the pitch of the sound.”
Posted by neela on January 1, 2010 at 3:16 AM (Answer #6)
http://www.enotes.com/homework-help/who-discovered-sound-wave-when-126763

Ancient temples designed for 110 Hz chanting
http://unmistaken1.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/ancient-temples-designed-for...

Ora Moose's picture

Mike, having grown up with a seemingly perfect rational 10x decimal based number system, it was hard to adapt to an English based measurement society. I won't pound on it, but why 16 or 64oz? Why 110 or 120 hertz and not just go with 100 for a nice round figure that's easy to remember and work with? Fahrenheit? I did a college paper on the numbering subject way back when in college that my teacher accused me of pilfering because she couldn't grasp that a sub-20 could think and argue that clearly. This is in the days before they even had calculators to crunch the math data. Light travels in waves as does heat sound and data and everything else. Frequency matters, cycles too motorized or not..

Ora Moose's picture

And btw for you deniars that the decimal system "will never be adopted by Americans," think dollars and common cents. $1.00 you say? Your great grandchildren will never understand how and why we objected, it musta been a corporate control marketing type thing. Things can't be too clear, or where would confusion and creativity go?

rawmilkmike's picture

Ora, I admit I am upset that no one has commented on my posts regarding raw milk's negative risk factor. I didn't mean to come off as such a wise a**. I am actually very interested in Tom's research.

My point was that the “second” has only recently been defined as a fixed value based on the speed of light, so 24 cycles per second in ancient times is not the same as 24 cycles per second today. Is a bell or tuning fork the only way to preserve a pitch or frequency?

Ora Moose's picture

Mike, I like most people here tend to post mostly when we differ so we can take a stand and make a point and your take on raw milk's negative factor definitively did got my attention. I tend to AGREE with you, but unfortunately we've had some serious health issues recently completely unrelated to milk recently so priorities and fine points become somewhat insignificant when you are sick or your family is and can't get basic things done.

The measurement of time fragments and relevance to pitch and frequency are based on the absolute math no matter if you use an oscilloscope, or tuning fork or your ear 24 beats per second will always be what they are no matter what clock you use and it's not a preservation thing it's a raw fact. Should I mention milk to stay on topic? Hope I don't suddenly disappear though some would think that's an improvement.

rawmilkmike's picture

Ora, sorry to hear about the serious health issues.

If the unit of measure, in this case the second, is variable then so is the frequency(which is measured in cycles per second) of a note, pitch, or tone. The unit of measure is what determines which frequencies will have whole numbers. Is there a way to determine the frequency of an ancient note, pitch, or tone? I think Tom has raise a very interesting question.

Are you saying you understand and agree when I say “New CDC study proves raw milk prevents foodborne illness. Food safety professor Ben Chapman of North Carolina State University agrees raw milk has a negative risk factor. David Gumpert says the CDC's 1.7% per year negative risk-factor for Minnesota raw milk is way off and that he believes Minnesota's raw milk has a negative risk-factor lower than 0.5%.”?

Ora Moose's picture

Thanks Mike, hopefully it's not nearly as bad as I made it sound for now at least I can still sit if not walk very well, think and read and write. And yes I do agree on your "negative risk factor" point. Unfortunately since you can't patent raw milk, real apples or broccoli, It's not going to have much support or marketing push from capitalist conglomerates that buy up media outlets to pollute public perception and politicians who need the money to stay in power. The struggle for truth vs. deception is getting bigger and more expensive.

This article summarizes it fairly well:

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/false-science-how-propaganda-masquerades-...

"The best defence against scientific frauds is a simple realization, science is something for everyone, not just “scientists”. We all have a duty to think for ourselves, to utilise our own minds and separate fact from fiction. Use the scientific mindset to rationally analyse the evidence before you."

As to the music/ frequency/ measurement... if you were to decide that a minute has 68 seconds, it would not alter the tone and how a musical note is perceived by our ears but it would affect the counting of cycles per second, counts per minute or wave length so you may have a point there.

Back to the man cave.

Mike, if my email is on what I had David forward to you about music, we can continue the discussion off blog. But to answer your question:

"Tom, how would they have counted the cycles and what were their units of time? How did they measure frequency?"

Their units of time were based on The Clock, hours minutes seconds. The idea of dividing the day into these increments is not recent, it goes way way back. To measure frequency, believe it or not, their original technology was far more advanced than what you are using today. This of course is denied by establishment science, as are whole facets of knowledge and whole bodies of evidence. Those ancient cities I mentioned, all being situated in precise spots on the Earth, are a clue.

Ora Moose's picture

"The idea of dividing the day into these increments is not recent, it goes way way back." Division actually goes much deeper than that as in, when you analyze less than a whole you are then measuring fractions which has a lot more to do with music, warmth, emotion and perception than we realize. Scales aren't just for fish, think micro. If it sounds good, most people will buy it after some initial repetition (read: frequency) conditioning.

rawmilkmike's picture

Thanks Ken. I completely forgot about vaccines and antibiotics when arguing this point. Vaccines and antibiotics are both associated with stomach flu(diarrhea). Antibiotics are often associated with HUS.

Also children in school or daycare are more susceptible, since most so called foodborne pathogens are much more likely to be spread by human contact then through food.

The reason I posted these links is that they indicate that children actually get less stomach flu. That means they are apparently not getting more foodborne illness than adults, like the anti-raw milk people are suggesting.

Also note where it says “2,247 medical conditions are said to cause diarrhea.” So when a raw milk drinker gets diarrhea how in the world can you blame it on the raw milk they put on their Froot Loops?

I'm trying to switch to the term stomach flu because I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing about “diarrhea”. What is that medical term the anti-raw milk people use?

Sylvia Gibson's picture

"Diarrhea is a symptom, not a disease. The acute form lasts only a day or two and usually isn't serious. It affects people of all ages, and some types are infectious. The average person may get acute diarrhea 3 to 5 times a year, and long-term effects are rare. Children under 5 years of age experience about 1 to 3 episodes of diarrhea every year."

I agree it is a symptom and it can have numerous causes and is usually self limiting. 3-5 times a year? I am glad I am NOT average. I know when my kids were 5 and under they certainly did NOT have diarrhea 1-3 times a year.

Since these are the govs stats, are they listing the exact causes and ways to correct this? Are they even investigating this? The only thing "normal" about diarrhea is the body trying to eliminate something rapidly that is potentially harmful from it.

IMHO it is the processed foods people eat, the way even produce is processed is unhealthy and in a nutshell these are major contributors to diarrhea. So, to answer my own questions, NO the gov is not investigating and no they are not going to inform the public on anything that will harm in any way their bed partners.

"stomach flu" is a misnomer. There really is no such thing. http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/viralgastroenteritis/ (I ignore the crap about vaccinations, that is its own toxic cocktail)

David, thank you for your comments and taking the time to once again illustrate the underlying motivation of the state of Michigan, their loss of POWER. They never planned on Mark Baker, and frankly they just have no idea how to deal with him. Harold Martin's body language speaks much louder than any of his words. He is so threatened, so ANGRY he can barely contain himself, as is evident with the thrusting of his hands in his pockets. His bullying tactics, which has worked so well with others, does not intimidate Mark Baker in any way, and Mr. Martin has no other tricks to pull from his regulatory hat other than his quasi-tantrum. He has neither the moral fortitude to admit he and the rest of the DNR made a mistake, let alone does he have the courage to make restitution for his errors. But what bothers him the most, what makes him so furious he can barely stand to look at Mark Baker, is the fact that he knows Mark is a better man than he is, a man that would die for his freedoms and those of his family, when Mr. Martin cannot even be bothered to mumble his way through the Pledge of Allegiance.

David Gumpert's picture

Well stated, Donna. Thanks. 

Ora Moose's picture

Donna, I second David thanks for kudos on shining some overview clarity even though that video speaks for himself. Any judge that watches it and recognizes that truth is hard to hide these days will be a better judge. Hey I have a pen camera but it's not HD. Still, it can show the truth in grainy terms. Get up, stand up for your rights never give up the fight because if you do it's over and we all lose. Oh ya!

David, please let me know if posting music links is too tiresome annoying and I'll stop although I think they help expression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F69PBQ4ZyNw

Go Baker's Never quit !

mark mcafee's picture

Pitty...serious and deep pitty is what I have for the attorney generals office. Much can be learned from watching the court house video and the conduct of the state attorney.

It really displays in full color the regulatory verses the peoples disconnect and the disdain for judicial process verses pure overwhelming corporate political power. What we saw here was an example of the power of the people with Mark Bakers intestinal fortitude and ability to persist and bring truth to power and bring it tumbling down. What we saw was the powerful voice of corporate regulators...simply become frustrated by inconvenience of the truth and rights prevailing. This inconvenience was truly manifested in the awkward frustration of the attorney general asking for public comment and then saying he did not care about the public comment.

The more we can expose this type of missconduct deep in our government and show the bright light of truth and freedom upon it...the freer we will be and less of this we will be met with in the future.

Another round of applause and a standing ovation to Mark Baker and his brave wife!!

David Gumpert's picture

Mark, this was so revealing, partly because it doesn't make the light of day too often. Regulators, as we well know, are quite adept at doing their dirty work in darkness, out of public view. Many of the worst ones make it a point to avoid bright lights of any sort, or even dim lights. They run if there is any chance they will face public scrutiny. They behave themselves in court, don't say more than absolutely necessary. This guy (and the people he represents), as you suggest, must have been so totally pissed and frustrated that he just let it all hang out. He did a great job educating people who don't understand the mentality. 

wseincjudydavid's picture

Thank you Mark and Jill.

rawmilkmike's picture

American families Unite in Prayer to God for our Country.

rawmilkmike's picture

Isn't it interesting that what used to be called the middle class is now called the rich?

they want science? I'll give you science
tripling the brix value ( sugar content) of grass in pasture
instead of feeding skim milk to swine, put it back on the fields

from Mother Earth News
^^^^^^^
Improving Garden Soil: Milk and Molasses Magic
By Terroir Seeds

Milk as Soil Food

Using milk on your compost and in your garden will probably come as a surprise to most. Upon closer inspection, however, it starts to make sense. The amino acids, proteins, enzymes and natural sugars that make milk a food for humans and animals are the same ingredients in nurturing healthy communities of microbes, fungi and beneficial bacteria in your compost and garden soil. Raw milk is the best, as it hasn’t been exposed to heat that alters the components in milk that provide a perfect food for the soil and plants, but any milk will provide nutrition and benefits. Using milk on crops and soils is another ancient technique that has been lost to large scale modern industrial agriculture.

Milk is a research-proven fungicide and soft bodied insecticide - insects have no pancreas to digest the milk sugars. Dr. Wagner Bettiol, a Brazilian research scientist, found that milk was effective in the treatment of powdery mildew on zucchini. His research was subsequently replicated by New Zealand melon growers who tested it against the leading commercially available chemical fungicide and found that milk out-performed everything else. To their surprise, they also found that the milk worked as a foliar fertilizer, producing larger and tastier melons than the control group.

Recently David Wetzel, a Nebraska farmer completed a 10 year study on applying milk at different rates to his pastures, and recorded the results with the help of the local Agricultural Extension agent Terry Gompert , a university soil specialist, a weed specialist and an insect researcher.

What they found was amazing- the grass production was drastically increased; the soil porosity or ability to absorb air and water doubled; microbe activity and populations increased; cows were healthier and produced more milk on treated pastures; the brix or sugar level in the pasture tripled, indicating more nutrients were stored in the grass than before. Grasshoppers abandoned the treated pastures- the sugars are a poison to soft bodied insects as they do not have a pancreas to process the sugars. This also explains why insects will leave healthy, high brix level plants alone, as they contain more sugars than the stressed and sickly ones. Milk Works As Fertilizer.

For the home gardener, the ratio can range from 100% milk to a 20% mixture with water, with no loss of benefits. Use as a spray on the compost and garden soil prior to planting, and as needed when insects appear. Spray directly on the insects and around the areas they inhabit. When combined with molasses, it becomes a highly beneficial soil drench. A proven solution is 20% milk – 1 cup of milk to 4 cups of water, or 2 cups milk to 8 cups water for larger gardens.

Molasses Feeds Micro-Organisms

Molasses is a viscous by-product of the processing of sugar cane or sugar beets into sugar. Sulfured molasses is made from young sugar cane. Sulfur dioxide, which acts as a preservative, is added during the sugar extraction process. Unsulfured molasses is made from mature sugar cane, which does not require such treatment. There are three grades of molasses: mild or Barbados, also known as first molasses; dark, or second molasses; and blackstrap. The third boiling of the sugar syrup makes blackstrap molasses. The majority of sucrose from the original juice has been crystallized and removed. The calorie content of blackstrap molasses is still mostly from the small remaining sugar content. However, unlike refined sugars, it contains trace amounts of vitamins and significant amounts of several minerals. Blackstrap molasses is a source of calcium, magnesium, potassium, and iron; one tablespoon provides up to 20% of the USDA daily value of each of those nutrients.

Molasses is a very valuable addition to the compost pile, as well as to the garden itself. Unsulfured blackstrap is the preferred variety, due to the mineral content, but any of the unsulfured ones will do fine. The benefits beyond the minerals are the natural sugar content that will feed the microorganisms in the compost or soil of the garden.

Use 1/4 to 1 cup to a gallon of water and spray onto the pile or garden, or add to the drip system for the garden. For soils that are poor, stressed or need help use 1 cup, while those that just need a little “snack” use 1/4 cup. The readily available sugar content will skyrocket the microbial activity.

Blackstrap molasses is also commonly used in horticulture as a flower blooming and fruiting enhancer, particularly in organic hydroponics. Use the before mentioned mixture in the drip system, or sprayed alongside the roots of fruiting vegetables as they start to flower to increase their flowering and fruiting. Add 3 Tablespoons of molasses to the milk spray solution mentioned above and use to feed plants during the height of growing season. Hungry, high production plants such as tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, melons, etc. will really benefit from the consistent feedings, giving you more production that is more flavorful.

A fringe benefit of spraying the milk and molasses mixture on the garden is a biologically friendly weed population control. Many broadleaf weeds thrive on diets high in available nitrates and potassium diets, common with commercial fertilizers. Phosphorus is “tied up” or bound with calcium in the soil and needs biological activity to release it. The calcium in milk helps to compensate for what is unavailable in the soil, while the increased biological activity from both the milk and molasses releases unavailable phosphorus and create soil conditions that are unfavorable to germination of weed seeds.

Who knew that something as simple as milk and molasses had such powerfully positive, far-reaching effects?

For a more in-depth look at other proven but unique approaches to creating great compost and healthy, fertile and vibrant garden soil, read our article "Compost- Nourishing Your Garden Soil" where we show how to stack several techniques to super-charge your compost.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Scott is an heirloom seedsman, educator, speaker, soil-building advocate, locavore, amateur chef, artist and co-owner of Terroir Seeds with his wife, Cindy. They believe in a world of healthy soil, seed, food and people. Everyone has a fundamental need for vibrant food and health, which are interrelated. They welcome dialogue and can be reached at Seeds@UnderwoodGardens.com or 888-878-5247. Visit their website and sign up for their Newsletter for more education like this!

mark mcafee's picture

I almost forgot about the raw milk bashing years. It was so negative. Kristen and Amanda both had plenty to say and it was all very ugly and destructive. OPDC responded to all of this crap by starting our Camping with the Cows event and completely ignoring the ugliness. It worked great. Investment in being positive is our vision!!

For every consumer that loves Claravale raw milk thickness and flavor there are many more that do not like thick raw milk and instead prefer pasture grazed lighter raw milk from 10 mixed breeds including 300 jerseys and plenty of jersey Holstein crosses. Each person has an opinion and a pallet to match. That is why choice matters.

What I can say is that OPDC provides free tours for every one. OPDC responds to all emails....every one!!! Also, I absolutely take every call from each and very consumer that calls. If I am not around, I call back every time!!

Just to make sure that the truth gets told ...again, our cows are pastured each and every day of the year !!! 100 % organic feeds and land and practices!! I get so sick of haters and negative junk. There is only one raw milk producer in the world that has taught 450 free Share the Secret raw milk classes in the last 4 years, and only one raw milk producer that was the first to teach other producers the tricks of how to produce raw milk safely, putting capitalism aside and consumer health first!

For an up close and intimate tour and connection at OPDC, all are invited to our May 3rd , 3rd annual Camping with the Cows Event.

There is no Raw Milk producer except for perhaps Edwin Shanks Family Cow Dairy, that tests it's milk 230 times per month including Pathogen testing of milk filters, with RAWMI Listing and published bacteria counts.

Let the facts speak for themselves. As far as Angela Davis and my dad are concerned, in the late 1960s, carpet bombing tens of thousands of people and napalming babies in the name of American freedom was a damn good reason to become damn mad, speak out, and blow up and break things. The raw milk revolution is a no biggy when considering the moral detour that America took in the 1960s. Deep down inside, my moral compass has no problem determining what is right and doing the right thing.

Ok...now I feel better....

let me get this perfectly clear : are you telling us that 2 wrongs actually do make a right?

Angela Davis engaged in pure domestic terrorism. The minute you condone that, you ditch any claim to a moral compass. Setting out to kill / maim perfectly innocent people, as though it somehow 'helps' bring about a greater good, is one of the definitions of insanity.
...What you've just said is : you've irretrievably thrown in your lot with Angela Davis and the very worst of the antichrists who hate America because it's white and because it's Christian : words straight out of her own poisoned pen
...what will it take you, Mark McAffee, to re-consider such insanity? Will it take some Muslim straight off the plane from Gaza Strip, coming 'round to your local farmer's market, on a beautiful summer day, when you're out there enjoying your liberty in this land of milk and honey. .... and he comes up next to you and your grand children then suicides himself with a belt of high-explosives, believing it will make his political point? How would you like it if those other guys = moved by the very logic you just professed = "brought the war home" ?
...Your pal Angela Davis was the most despicable of the whole lot ... the over-educated, pampered limosine-liberal got someone else to do the butchering. Morality ? Robert Strange McNamara had the integrity to admit he was wrong. May God have mercy on him. Angela Davis and her blood-drenched ilk, will have a very different end, come Judgment Day than he will.
... Perhaps you join Comrade Davis in justifying the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia, too? Do you condone the murders of people who literally got crushed to death under Soviet tank treads? Angela Davis did.
... Millions of people managed to wake up from the national nightmare of Soviet tyranny ... but you're still apologizing for them! Alexander Solzenhitsen spent 12 years in hard labor in the Gulags ... Angela Davis' opinion was : he deserved it, for criticzing communism
...Back in the 1992, I was scouted for the role James Kopps carried out ... nicking a few abortionists and leaving them floundering in pools of blood, for maximum media attention. I chose not to. Later, in an anti-abortion case, Prosecutor Elliot Poll put to me on the witness stand : "you talk so big and tough ... why don't you go out and shoot abortionists yourself ?" On the spur of the moment, the Holy Spirit guided me to say : "because knocking off an abortionist, is not going to stop the holocaust on unborn children". Did the Black Panthers help their own people, or hurt them? They were controlled opposition from Day One... go talk to Eldridge Cleaver, then get back to us. Malcolm X was assassinated because he saw through the way the biggest racists of all = the commies = were happily using the Negoes to destroy America ... exactly as Israel Cohen, head of the Communist Party USA had predicted in 1905.
to this day, Angela Davis is one of the most dangerous domestic enemies of the Republic. She deserves to be given a genuinely fair trial then publicly executed for Treason, the very same as she espoused for poltical dissidents in the Soviet union

rawmilkmike's picture

“Dog Whistle Politics: How Coded Racial Appeals Have Reinvented Racism and Wrecked the Middle Class by Ian Haney Lopez”

Listen - Aired January 22, 2014 - 8:00am;
http://www.wpr.org/shows/racism-politics

Ora Moose's picture

It's getting dark in here again, so I'll just ask if raw milk from genetically modsified cows would qualify? This is a first for me, I don't think I've ever posted an Onion link before, but then again they don't make me cry:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/monsanto-develops-hardier-strain-of-cor...

Sylvia Gibson's picture

Wow, when I commented on cautioning for Mr. Baker and his children on his choices of battling the state/feds, I was imagining the horrors Mark McAffee went through as a child because of the choices his father made. (FYI, Mark's dad isn't the only parent who made choices that jeopardized their children) The abuse they suffered in schools and the death of his young brother at the hands of those who didn't believe the same. It was no different than abusing someone because their religious beliefs are different, or the color of skin, or where you live, etc. My comment was in no way siding with or against his dad's choices for himself. My concern is for the children, who are innocent in any adult battle.

David has the past archived on this blog and you can do a search. Angela Davis has nothing to do with raw dairy as far as I know. I am not seeing any reason to rehash her past since she isn't involved with raw dairy.

mark mcafee's picture

Gordon and Sylvia,

Lets be clear here. I do not encoruage, support or condone violence in any form.

I was a child growing up in the 1960s and I saw plenty of violence first hand in Isreal. I live there on a Kibutz, I saw the Isreali army kill innocent palestinians with out any regard as a matter of policy. I have seen American police beat protesters brains in....I have seen police incite riots only to arrest the rioters.

Enough of violence and enough of violent language. It is time to evolve from the use and abuse of violence and adopt to change through social consciousness and dollar voting to a better and more sustainable future for all. When a drone is the answer....we have a serious problem. When name calling and labeling people that disagree with our cultures and our beliefs in order to target them for death is the new policy...we are no longer free as a people. We are far worse than those that attempt to stand up in their individual concept of freedom against us.

Life on earth is very much just like the human biome study discovery. Bad bugs and pathogens grow when conditions support their growth...super bad pathogens grow and become resistant when challenged with death. Life on earth is just the same. We must invest in humanitarian assistance and reduce military agression if we expect to lead by example. I do not mean that we should be weak militarily....but it is not the example we should use to encourage non violence and encourage peace. How can we speak of Russian agression in the Crimea, when we invaded two countries in the last 12 years and killed a million civilians!!! We speak out of both sides of our mouths!!

It is time to become less bigotted and a whole lot more loving and considerate of all peoples. By example we will drain the swamps and then there will be fewer alligators.
Gordon....I appreciate your passion and your first amendment rights, but I think you are very miss guided and do not fully appreciate the deep frustration of the negros and what they needed to do to rebel and take a stand and regain some morsel of pride and honor when they were being hung up on trees just becuase they were black and their non-violent civil rights had just taken a bullet in the chest.

I am not going to write any more about this.....lets all go back to raw milk and building a healthier and better future for our children.

Ora Moose's picture

"xample we will drain the swamps and then there will be fewer alligators."

Mark, the alligators and swampers in general are not happy with that last comment but I am. I do agree with every mouth having two sides, I'm looking for my other one while trying to speak and at the same time speaking of me not you. I did not know you grew up in Middle East buy it helps me understand who you are a lil bit.

Morsel Of Pride, I saw them with Deep Frustration (or was it Deep Purple?) I hope I don't bore you but since I'll only be around for maybe another 10 years or so hate me while you can. Peace is for the dead, violence is the last recourse of those realizing they're wrong or having no other choice but some sort of muscle physically financially politically and mentally. Hey look, it's snowing out again!

"police incite riots only to arrest the rioters" is quite quotable too.

Ora Moose's picture

Mark, I have sheetload of family history that I would not want to come out in public so I commend you for being so strong and open in the bright lights of Big Biz. Me, I've given up other than posting here about public food concerns that might affect our children and ancestors.

mark mcafee's picture

Back on track here.

I just got a desparate call from a woman in New York that goes to Pennsylvania and buys raw milk from several Amish dairymen and then takes it to new York and Long Island and delivers to Coops.

She had no idea about indicators of milk qulaity she had no idea what a pathogen was...she was a very lost ball in a very big bulk tank!!!

She reporting to me how scared she was that several of her coop members are now reporting that they have bloody diarhea and have even been to the hospital. She did not know what to do...she did not know if she should change Amish farmers and get some better ones.

Her language was so ignorant. This is the kind of thing that happens with a black market system. This is what happens when there is no transparency, no testing and no PLAN.

I am supposed to support this kind of market system! She was calling me at RAWMI to get help. I did all I could, but this is like closing the gate after the cows are out.

Prevention, RAWMI LISTING, Knowledge, Plans testing, Mentoring, decent standards. This is the way forward. The FDA must be loving the chaos created by ignorance. All of this madness just re-enforces their anti raw milk mantra and suppressive regulatory policy.

If you are producing raw milk....please become RAWMI LISTED and proudly show your hard work to everyone. Prevention is the name of this game!! I am so tired of getting calls from really desparate and really ignorant people.

Mark,

The quickest, easiest and most effective( 98% cure rate) treatment for bloody diarrhea is probiotic bacteriotherapy.This is a polite way to say: find a healthy doner and introduce a small amount (less than a cup) of their liquified stool by enema into the colon of the one with bloody diarrhea, repeat daily for three days . The affect was dramatic in the case I am aware of.The first treatment showed great improvement ,the third treatment probably was not necessary.No trip to the hospital is necessary. Healthy stool is 50% live bacteria and even better it is a whole community of bacteria that are already functioning successfully as a team. Why does this work so well? You will have to reexamine your whole belief in good and bad bacteria. It is the balanced bacterial community working as a system that keeps us healthy.

Deborah - Pacifica's picture

Thank you for bringing this up again, miguel, I too, have mentioned this a few times on this forum in the past, including some cases that I was familiar with. Believe it or not, but there are some mainstream medical practitioners that are knowledgeable & skilled with this treatment & who have successfully used this on many patients.

mark mcafee's picture

Ora,

if you believe that violence holds a place in peace and or progress....you sure as hell should not suggest it in public. Kind of like a Martial Arts Black Belt bragging about his ability to break your neck in 3 seconds. Does not really help much. It tends to excuse the use of a gun against Black belts as a pre-emptive measure. Peace is a state of heart. It does not mean that you are not armed...quite to the contrary, it is a place where the mind and strategic thought trumps emotions and stupid actions. It is a place where you feel very secure in your true north and avoid violence and do not seek it. It is the place of being ultimately armed with with a clear and calm state of mind. No fear...just love and strength.

Ora Moose's picture

Mark, i am 100% against violence in any form too so please don't color me that way> but I do firmly believe in knowing how to defend yourself when attacked just so you'd know you will get appropriate response before attacking. My arms are low tech secret, and calm is what I strive for daily ;-) or is that dairyly? Couldn't resist. True north where is my compass? I'll go look for it now.

Ora Moose's picture

Man, its getting even darker now think I'll jump in the jacuzzi for a couple days pardon me.

Ora Moose's picture

Not to overpost overload, but scrolled back and now can see what Mark was referencing and I apologize. I have no clue as to who A Davis was or the historical role but I know there are strong feelings especially if there's personal involvement. He is definitely right about one thing: " Peace is a state of heart." Live it.

Amen, back to my now full jot tub Jacuzzi. Peace out for a couple days.

wseincjudydavid's picture

Your very welcome.

rawmilkmike's picture

“Dog Whistle Politics: Have Wrecked the Middle”
http://www.wpr.org/shows/racism-politics

since this is the twelfth time you posted the lead-line about "dog whistle politics", I'm going to take you up on your interest in the suggestion of AG Holder = for an intelligent dialogue on race. Go read what Jared Taylor has to say about it
< http://www.amren.com/news/2014/03/the-biological-reality-of-race/ >

or, farther down that website, under March 13th = the article from the Medical Express "Study links ability of Africans to spread of cattle raising".
Of course, being only peer-reviewed papers from genuine scientists they won't make a dent in your mind-set that "race is only a social construct". Every bit of evidence from the Human Genome Project, plus what scientists ( real scientists ) are discovering about the human biome, confirms that Caucasians differ significantly from other people. One example being : our very DNA programs white people to survive and thrive on REAL MILK. The mortal enemies of our nation know that much, which is why they work so hard at work denying us that part of our heritage. The poisoning of the wells - with fluoride / adulteration of our food supply in, what used to be, the land of milk and honey = are tactics of war that go right back to the days of Baalim.

you want to see what "dog whistle politics" looks like in action ... go review the unspeakably loaded comments your President made, prior to the Zimmerman trial

rawmilkmike's picture

Gordon S Watson, your website http://www.amren.com/about/issues/ can best be summed up in one word: “Ignorance”.
...
“The problems of race cannot be solved without adequate understanding. Attempts to gloss over the significance of race or even to deny its reality only make problems worse. Progress requires the study of all aspects of race, whether historical, cultural, or biological.”
...
What you call “race realism” is in fact the exact opposite. The fact that you ignore all my links and questions proves this.

The Race Card Project, only whites think it's a game. Small minds think in short sentences.

Dog Whistle Politics, do you even understand the concept?

How does burning bridges help your cause, unless burning bridges is your cause?

like I say : you brought up race a dozen times so I gave you something to chew on ... but of course even that small dose of reality is too strong meat. "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink / you can point a boy to the facts, but you can't make 'em think"
I have a much better grasp of "dog whistle politics" than do you, getting my information first-hand : hanging out with Paul Fromm for the last quarter century, listening to what people such as Tom Sunic, Mark Weber ; David Irving ; Lady Michelle Renouf etc have to say, when they come to town. There's a whole universe of thought that the lib-tards try so hard to deny, that makes a lot more sense than the "diversity" song. Race realists like Jared Taylor can explain why Detroit is 'a failed nation' and why there's more of the same, to come ... people like you see white flight but your ridiculous explanations don't help a bit. Caucasians are now entering the phase of our national ( Israel-itish ) cycle wherein our God forces us to separate ourselves from the world. The Campaign for REAL MILK being one tiny hotspot in the overall battle. Until you read the Bible, Mikey - and ALL of it - you're not an educated man

Ora Moose's picture

The bible, as g w bush famously said about the constitution is just a piece of paper. Its the thought that counts and only if you live by it, doesn't mean others will.

rawmilkmike's picture

Gordon, I never bring up race.

The bible is just words if you have no understanding of it.

What is the definition of a boom town?
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White is not a race. Whites have a diverse history and blacks even more so. The same goes for our genetics.

What you call “race realism” is in fact the exact opposite. The fact that you ignore all my links and questions proves this.

If you understand dog whistle politics, please explain it.

Ora Moose's picture

Mickey, the word is PREJUDICE. We are all the same no matter how you slice it. Race implies someone is out to beat all the others to some finish line, ignoring is a great defense when you have no other rational recourse as is violence but we won't go there. Missing planes, I saw them back up the watchemacallems

rawmilkmike's picture

Ora, I've attempted to discuss prejudice with a few close friends and family with little success. Here I only respond when others bring it up. Dog whistle politics is more about politics than prejudice. We have politicians blaming others for the problems they cause. When we stipulate to the propaganda of the rich we play into their hands and we all lose.

Ora Moose's picture

Mikey (hope you don't mind me spelling it that way) I admit I'm not up on the subtleties of dog whistles and propaganda of the rich since I'm not one of them. I do have a ref whistle and I'll blow it whenever I see an obvious foul. Play fair.

rawmilkmike's picture

Dog whistle politics is how they get people to support policies that are clearly not in their best interest.
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Yes, poor minorities bear the brunt of these bogus policies followed by poor whites and middle class minorities have to put up with some rascal profiling but for the most part, dog whistle politics hurt whites as much as they hurt blacks. Our current economic situation is a direct result of dog whistle politics.

Ora Moose's picture

When it comes down to the essence, regardless of race politics religion or any other measuring stick the one word is MONEY.

I've taken myself out of the currency game and suggest you do too. Less stress, more happy and milk.

rawmilkmike's picture

Zimmerman clearly shot the young man in self defense but it was the drug that Zimmerman was on that put him in that situation. The drug is what kept Zimmerman up at night, it is what caused him to join the neighborhood watch, it is why he was out that night, and it is what caused him to get out of his car and follow the young man. Zimmerman went Columbine.

rawmilkmike's picture

If these anti-raw milk people had the authority to do what they want to do, they would have done it by now. That is not to say that they won't eventually get their way. They are constantly finding new ways to get around the law.

you prattling-on about 'lack of authority" shows your blind-spot on this topic. After you've been taken down in a carotid-hold ... 3 cops riding you to the ground, or had loaded handgun pointed at you by a girl in an RCMP uniform ... and lived through a few such confrontations with the gendarms ... then your 2-bits'-worth will carry some weight in disussion about what's appropriate.
... you're obtuse to grasping the FACT that "they" already have done it. Did you miss the part where a dozen cops of various govt. agencies, swarmed Rawsome and took away $80,000 worth of food ... to the dump? the raid on Glencoulton farm in 2006 : where an actual SWAT team showed up to seize dairy equipment? I recommend David Gumpert's book Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Food Rights, to tune you up.
... These people have lost their minds ... if they ever had one. "Law" ? what 'law'? you mean your quaint Constitution? which the anti-christs subverted 3 generations ago?
... 'there is nothing new under the sun' = "they" don't have to find new ways to get around the law ; Until you get it clear that the presumption of the those who direct the thugs in the uniform of the state is : "might makes right". you don't have the measure of the enemy. the movie. As simple as it is, the movie "They Live" is highly instructive

rawmilkmike's picture

Of course it's important to keep in mind what these people are capable of. I'm know hero. A lot of men know about trumped up charges. But knowing what their not capable of may be just as important.
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Gordon, I've come to the same conclusion. So, like they say, We have the right to remain silent. “Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.” …....