Putting Vonderplanitz, and Conspiracies, to Rest; Comments Commentary

Aajonus Vonderplanitz with Vernon HershbergerIn death, as in life, food rights advocate and nutritionist Aajonus Vonderplanitz continues to stir up controversy. Now, it’s over his death, and whether he died as detailed by a number of witnesses, including his girlfriend in Thailand, in an accident. 

I spoke yesterday with Larry Otting, a close friend of Vonderplanitz from Los Angeles. Otting reported that he had recently returned fromThailand, where he helped straighten out the affairs of of his friend, whom he is convinced died in a fall earlier this month.

Vonderpanitz, according to Otting, was cremated Friday in Thailand. It had been his wish to be laid to rest in that country, where he had a farm in a remote area in the north of the country, not far from the border of Laos (in addition to the Philippines, where he also owned a farm). Because Vonderplanitz had little in the way of close family, Otting had taken it upon himself to travel to Thailand and straighten out Vonderplanitz’s affairs. This included paying workers at the farm, which produced a variety of tropical fruits and veggies, and retrieving his body for cremation. 

Otting told me that Vonderplanitz had had the farm house physically moved some years ago to its current location. That might have explained why the balcony from which Vonderplanitz fell was in such poor condition. “It was twenty feet up. It should have been two feet up. Aajonus leaned against a railing and fell. The railing was just held together with a few nails.” The fall broke Vonderplanitz’s back and left him paralyzed. He died a few days later at an area hospital.

Otting said he viewed his friend’s body, and found it to be well preserved, given the tropical conditions.  He was still wrapped in cloth, “almost like a mummy,” that he had requested of hospital staff to stabilize his body, when he was brought to the hospital. Otting said he was asked not to take photos of his friend's body because it is a violation of Thai customs. Otting arranged for an autopsy, and results aren’t yet known. But Otting has little doubt that what the doctors at the hospital told him is likely true--that Vonderplanitz died from internal bleeding after he refused recommendations to have extensive x-rays taken and possibly carry out surgery to try to repair the internal damage. 

When I asked Otting why Vonderplanitz would not have agreed to the proposed approach, he said, “It was against his philosophy. He believed in natural approaches.” This included wrapping his body and being fed butter and honey to help fight the shock to his body from the fall. 

Because of Vonderplanitz’s run-ins with government authorities over food rights, there has been discussion on Facebook and elsewhere that somehow the nutritionist was sabotaged by enemies. Otting said that, based on what he saw, Vonderplanitz almost certainly died from injuries from the unfortunate accident. 

Wisconsin farmer Vernon Hershberger, who used Vonderplanitz’s leasing model for his private food club, has published several photos from the accident site, showing the broken balcony railing, along with a tribute to his food club mentor. Hershberger also includes a photo of himself with Vonderplanitz at a rally supporting the farmer in his battle with Wisconsin agriculture authorities (shown above). 

I sure hope the death of Vonderplanitz doesn’t become one of those ongoing conspiracy subjects, like that of Jonestown (per discussion following my previous post). 

**

I was intrigued by the piece Ora Moose linked to in The Atlantic about how Popular Science had banned comments on its site. 

More to the point, I was intrigued by the comments following the piece. There are lots of them, and a number are quite incisive about the entire Internet comment phenomenon. They are worth a scroll through.

As I read through the comments and the different kinds of scenarios people identified, I realized that we’ve seen it all at this site in its nearly eight years. I actually take it as a compliment when readers say they read this blog more for the comments than for what I write. 

That’s because I see what goes on here, despite the personal accusations, spam, misinformation, racism, and other distractions, as more often than not being constructive. The tone has changed for the more constructive as all of us have become more informed and savvy. 

 

I’ve certainly been tempted at times to change the comment format, and while I’ve introduced a few controls, it remains nearly entirely unedited, uncensored...and provocative.  I like to think they've been a positive force. 

I think there's a difference between deliberately offensive "jokes" which have no bearing on any sort of discussion, and opinions upon which commenters disagree. Can't the baby's bathwater be thrown out if it's disgustingly dirty? As far as I can see, Mr. Watson seems to be more restrained while others are apparently losing it. OK, enough on that topic, I know.

The Vonderplanitz death seems like the old "death by falling" that happens in movies, but I guess it happens in real life occasionally.

rawmilkmike's picture

Yes, wasn't something like 50 witness died of mysterious falls after the Kennedy assassination.

Ora Moose's picture

Follow up with a few interesting links but no mention of CP, perhaps because we're still allowed to comment here:

http://www.hangthebankers.com/mainstream-media-to-remove-comments-sectio...

What's a boing boing?

Oh and Mama and Mike, don't worry about me. I may often seem obtuse but that's on purpose and it helps keep my sanity what little there is of it. Humor is often misconstrued.

D. Smith's picture

The REALLY humorous part is that the sites mentioned in the article & video Ora posted actually more or less admitted they hire paid trollers - - - and then they wonder why the comment sections are littered with what they call misinformation? How ironic. Trolling happens in all comment sections, we've seen that here.

I've been to a lot of sites where you can only comment if you're a member at facebook, so I have to skip over those.

What few people seem to realize, at least the people in the MSM, is that it isn't only the general public who read the comment sections.

I prefer a forum setting to a jump-all-over-the-place comment section. But this is the world of blogs and these blog sites are not designed to accomodate the readers, only the writers. A forum is a much better format, but that's just my opinion. They've been around longer and most of the kinks have been worked out of them. Not only that, they're free and you can shop around for a background without commiting to it until you're sure it's what you want, and then you set it up. You can always make changes, too. For instance when I read here at David's blog, I have to reset my light/dark option to the lowest light setting, otherwise I can barely read what's on that light grey background. White or a dark color is fine, but that grey just kills my eyes.

Thing is, on most forums, you cannot sell anything directly, although you can post links to things you use, etc. I also utilize an ISS which does block most ads and all banner ads in my email and a few other places. Nice, I really like that. My vision isn't that good anymore and all those blinking ads just distract me to the point where sometimes I just click out and never go back.

I bet this is the kind of magisterial piece and squalid comment thread they were thinking of.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/controversy-behind-elles-c...

In the piece our betters clearly lecture us about the safety of GMOs and the hysteria of those who are concerned about them. Then just look at those nasty cretins in the comment thread expressing doubts, and even, good heavens, rudely CONTRADICTING! And when a paid professional condescends to post comments correcting these heathens, they give her talkback too!

There goes the neighborhood! No wonder the place had to shut down such a cesspool.

What is Popular Science, by the way? It seems to have little to do with science, and everything to do with nihilistic technology porn. It looks like we have here another gang of elitists who are chagrined that the peasants will no longer sit quietly and do what they're told.

"Another study found that even simple disagreements between commenters "impacted readers' perception of science," wrote Suzanne LaBarre, PopSci's online content director."

Good! We need more skepticism toward self-proclaimed elites, and scienticians and technocrats are among the worst going.

(It's also a good example of how Americans in general seem less and less able to handle any sort of disagreement, let alone conflict. But any good discussion among a general readership is going to have disagreement, often sharp. It's people who are that thin-skinned who try to make comment threads as mediocre, and pro-status quo, as possible.)
"Like a narrow Supreme Court opinion, PopSci's defense was case-specific, without presuming to tell other sites they should follow along. Comments "erode the popular consensus" on scientifically validated topics, LaBarre wrote, such as climate change and evolution."

Gee, that would be too bad. And after your majesties validated it and all. Of course, it's pro-GMO hacks like those at PopSci who are evolution deniers and pseudo-scientific propagators of flat-earth dogmas like one gene = one trait, the faith basis of the alleged "substantial equivalence" of GMOs, and the justification for why they were unleashed without having been safety tested.

"It's perfectly legal to wonder aloud on your Facebook page whether dinosaur bones are real or placed there by a spiritual entity to test our faith. But it's not quite the discussion a site like PopSci wants to cultivate under a column by a world-renowned paleontologist. "The cynical work of undermining bedrock scientific doctrine is now being done beneath our own stories within a website devoted to championing science," LaBarre wrote eloquently."

Well, she wrote it hypocritically and tendentiously, at any rate. DAMN that filthy democracy thing! And beneath our own stories, no less!

Also, it's always funny to have to point out to so-called "scientists" that they're not supposed to have things like "bedrock doctrines". It seems that these days no one's more ignorant about science or what science is supposed to do than the establishment technicians who fraudulently call themselves "scientists".

Ora Moose's picture

Not to derail the conversation or make anyone suspect I've gone insane again, but I looked up the word "Class" and found this in the Boston Glob/Boston.com today. I consider him to be possibly the best athlete of any sport in my lifetime, and one of my all time heroes and role models. I was lucky enough to meet the man at Toronto airport may years ago and was disarmed by his humility and sincerity. If the links don't work check back in a couple of days as the Globe keeps some content private for subscribers.

http://www.boston.com/video/viral_page/?bctid=2700675642001

http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/bruins/2013/09/28/number-bobby-orr-s...

http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/bruins/2013/09/28/number-bobby-orr-s...

And no, my pen name Ora is not related in any way. Wonder if he grew up on raw milk, wouldn't be surprised.

In her new book Food Tyrants / sub- titled “Fight for your right to healthy food in a toxic world” author Nicole Faires says “the control exerted over food production today is similar to the fascist laws enacted by Nazi Germany in the 1930s” She quotes Michael Schmidt : “you can actually impose the same restrictions and expose people to the same thing that happened during the Third Reich in Germany, in a very sophisticated way”
Tell me about it! Plowing-through the judge’s Reasons for convicting us of contempt of Court here in BC, he admits that he viewed my website* OUT OF THE COURTROOM, then used what I’d posted as part of the rationale for sending us to prison for 3 months. The part that offended him was, where I sneer at govt. officials who oppose the Campaign for REAL MILK as “ …idiots and communists in high places …” Eternal optimist that I am, I’m glad Mister Justice Wond did so … his over-reaction makes my point better than I ever could. I’ll be using his blunder to go to the Court of Appeal concerning my favourite topic = freedom of expression.
I’m serene about it all now, 20 years after going through 3 ‘contempt’ prosecutions in the so-called “pro-life thing” wherein the naked face of fascism stared down at me, from the Bench. Compared to which = the raw milk thing is just a walk in the park.
Keep on milking, people … beyond argument, the Campaign for REAL MILK is prevailing … leaving ignoramuses, suckholing apparatchiks, and their ilk on the manure pile of history.
* < www.freewebs.com/bovinity >

Ora Moose's picture

Gordon, it's just amazing to me that people like you and Mark and others on the front lines actually post here. I'm just a milk drinker that strongly believes that what I eat or drink should be MY choice, not the government's but I do not have the experience, contacts or knowledge that you guys do.

I was mildly surprised that anyone here would actually care if I stayed around when I recently suggested I could just go away, but your input is absolutely precious and enlightening as much as David's articles and investigative work. Thank you and please keep doing the right thing, maybe someday you could even write a book too...

mark mcafee's picture

As a retired EMS Paramedic and after seeing first hand the miracles of modern trauma medicine and at the very same time seeing first hand the dismal failure of modern medicine in the treatment of chronic disease.....it is with full confidence that I will comment on Aajonus and his ignorance of of the very good things brought by modern medicine with regards to the treatment of trauma.

All of the herbs, acupuncture & raw meat in the world simply do not work very effectively to stop critical arterial internal bleeding. Modern trauma medicine simply saves lives in the acute phase. The recovery phase is another matter entirely. Aajonus missed this notion entirely.

Suffice it to say that Aajonus and his own mindset was central to his own passing. Sad all very sad.

We should all take a note from this chapter in the life of Aajonus. Even though we may hold our beliefs dearly....we should always be open to ideas and concepts beyond our own. It may save your life!! One more thing....when you relocate a house,...built it stronger than before. In Thailand there are literally no building regulations enforcement in rural areas. It is a land of complete freedom ( not really but exaggerated to make my point ) ...no inspections....not even for railings. The last lesson of Aajonus life....complete freedom from regulations and no inspectors can take your life and it sure did.

David Gumpert's picture

Good points, Mark. I've always felt that our conventional medical system does certain things spectacularly well--for example, replacing knees and hips, and, as you say, sewing people up inside and out on an emergency basis. Unfortunately, our culture extrapolates that if the medical people do these "mechanical" things so well, they must be miracle workers in all areas of health. As we well know, they aren't.But as you suggest, to be aware of modern medicine's weaknesses shouldn't lead one to ignore its strengths, as Aajonus seemed to do. 

On the building regulations thing, I just went through an experience of installing a new gas boiler in my house. When the plumber was through putting it all together, a town inspector had to clear the new equipment before the gas company could actually turn on the gas. The inspector was very thorough--at the very end, he found we only had one carbon monoxide sensor rather than the two required (one for each of the two levels of the house). Fortunately, the plumber had an extra one in his truck, and immediately installed it (so we wouldn't have to wait days, without hot water and heat, for another inspection). When the inspector passed the boiler, I was actually grateful, because he had helped make my house safer, and I could breathe easier knowing he was doing the same thing elsewhere, reducing the possibilities for deadly leaks. Regulation carried out in an impartial way, in the pursuit of true safety, can be a very good thing. 

D. Smith's picture

The track record for modern medicine is indeed dismal. I agree with Ken when he says that at least AV's wishes weren't dismissed by the doctors in Thailand. In america the doctors would have made all the decisions and the patients can say nothing. And I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, David, in that I've never yet seen a successful knee or hip replacement, never seen a successful carpal tunnel surgery, and the list goes on. Oh they may appear successful in the beginning, but I've never seen one with a truly marvelous outcome. When obozocare goes into effect, and I'm sure it will because our governing bodies cannot seem to find straight up, we're going to see problems galore, and marvelous outcomes won't be a product of that behemoth, either.

churchlanefarm's picture

Why was his chosen path so sad Mark?
The fact that his point of view was respected and not overruled by some governing body is uplifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCmr2OGmMDQ

We are all victims of circumstance, including those circumstances governed by regulatory protocol. In fact such protocol, under the guise of true safety, is responsible in large part for the unhealthy predicament we currently find ourselves in today.

Unfortunately regulation is subject to the whims of human vice, namely our greedy, arrogant desire to control others. The rational for true safety has become little more then a façade. Indeed we find ourselves in a precarious balancing act between perceived safety and free will.

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin
Ken

rawmilkmike's picture

Ked, in the case of healthy food, does "temporary safety" mean the avoidance of death threats and litigations.

Shawna Barr's picture

I feel like as raw milk producers, we personally walk in this balance all the time....the Western and the Eastern, the modern and the traditional, the pharmacuetical and the holistic... ways of healing and thinking. The FDA tells me "Keep your milk cold...very cold, to arrest the growth of all bacteria." Sally Fallon tells me, "Culture your milk. Warm it up. Let the good bacteria multiply. It will be more digestible, and the good bacteria compete with pathogens, should there be any to begin with." Neither way is wrong, and I think we do well to learn about, and attempt to integrate the two approaches the best we can.

When my daughter skied into a tree last winter, breaking her tiny elbow into 3 pieces, right in the growth plate. It was a nasty injury that threatened to effect her mobility for the rest of her life. We were so grateful for skilled surgeons and their technolgy to put her back together. Then, we helped her heal with intensive herbal and nutritional support, and body-work therapies. Her surgeon was astounded at her total healing in record time.

The two approaches can work together. And nowhere do we see the merging of the two like in raw milk production. We are producing a living, traditional, ancient food that our ancestors thrived upon. And yet, we are using modern technology to do so: testing for zoonotic disease, cleaning them with iodine, cooling our milk, counting bacteria under microscopes....the methodologies blend well to create a traditional food to a modern world.

rawmilkmike's picture

Shawna I agree but you lumped surgeons and MD's together. Healthcare and medical care don't mix. MD's and "raw milk producers" are more like polar opposites, that can never work together. They are mutually exclusive. The $4 trillion a year medical industry and the powerful people behind it will be completely out of business if local raw dairy becomes popular.

Not only are MD's not surgeons, they may not even be Physicians.

Hippocratic Oath - English translation;

Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art — if they desire to learn it — without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but to no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

rawmilkmike's picture

I still say, bad mouthing a man after his death is in very bad taste. I can't believe I'm the only one that can see that, since that is not really my area of expertise.

Also, the more people deny a conspiracy the more it seems like one, especially before the autopsy. A $4 trillion a year industry is certainly capable of knocking off one man. Even though I don't believe it's good to dwell on the negative; until I see some good evidence to the contrary, I will probably assume the worst. We are going to need some powerful people on our side if we are to succeed in the healthy food arena.

An MD is not a surgeon. And even a surgeon is not above selling an unnecessary procedure from time to time. We all sell something. Caveat Emptor. Let the buyer beware.

Even though a regulation can occasionally be beneficial to the public, that is seldom their true intent.

I agree with your last sentence, Mike. It's an accident when a regulation actually helps the people.

David Gumpert's picture

Mike, I'm not sure questioning Vonderplanitz's last actions is badmouthing him. I suspect that, had he lived, he would have welcomed a discussion about the treatment approach he chose for himself. He always seemed to relish such conversation. In fact, at the raw food potlucks he held around the country, he entertained questions and comments about all kinds of illnesses and treatments. He liked to brag that 4 per cent of his cancer patients died--he argued that was much better than the conventional medicine success rate. 

Ora Moose's picture

I'm really looking forward to this documentary, even though I suspect it's not going to be earth shattering news for most of us here. I wonder if they touch on raw vs. pasteurized milk info?

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bought-the-movie-phase-ii?show_todos=true

Mark or David, maybe you should contact the film makers and volunteer to be in it, since they evidently are still filming. I'm sure you could present some facts they may have considered or not, that you could shed light on for public education.

mark mcafee's picture

RawMilk Mike. I consider all untimely death very sad. Aajonus still had much life to live and would not have chosen death if given a choice, in my humble opinion. Also....I totally agree, one should not ever bad mouth a person that has died. That is very bad karma. AV....I apologize to you for anything that I have said negative about you now or in the past. Hope you can hear this bro...all of my comments are made and intended to be thoughtful observations about life. Your life gave us all pause and much to discuss for sure.

Shawna...could not agree more. The best of medicine is "complimentary healing" with all the tools in and out of the medical-wholistic and nutritional box. That includes skilled surgeons and paramedics when acutely needed and nutritional and alternative experts and raw milk producers to repair and recover the body to its full health after the acute phase is over and we have been stabilized.

Remember...lack of Airway-Breathing & or Circulation kills in 4 minutes. Pretty damn acute. This is not something treated with raw milk, raw meat or raw anything besides "raw medical skills". Recovery is very much in the realm of raw milk and nutrition...but you have to survive to be able to recover. Because of its rather insidiuos onset, perhaps AV did not really appreciate how grave his condition was. After all he was in shock and could not think very well.

rawmilkmike's picture

Mark, I know what you mean and you may be right. But!!! Why do we need to lump EMTs, Surgeons, and even Physicians for that matter, together with Medical Doctors? And how can an apology end with a but? Don't feel bad Mark, I still haven't apologized to my cousin out in California, for saying “If your doctor husband really loved you he would at least consider raw milk before allowing you to have your knees replaced just because you have osteoarthritis.” I can't seem to think of an apology without a but.

Deborah - Pacifica's picture

Either I am missing your point, rawmilkmike, or I just don't understand your logic here. What exactly do you mean by "Surgeons, and even Physicians for that matter, together with Medical Doctors"? Yes, they ARE Medical Doctors, hence, M.D. or else they could be a D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathy) instead. But, an E.M.T. is not a Medical Doctor and I didn't catch where Mark was equating E.M.T.s as medical doctors. A surgeon is a Medical Doctor that went on to specialize in surgery, just like a Cardiologist, Electrophysiologist, Urologist, etc. They all become M.D.s or D.O.s first, then go on to specialize. I really have to take exception with your total negative stance on the medical field...true there has been much that have added a bad element to the medical field & true, the mega-pharmaceutical companies have gotten so totally out of hand, but there are many, many things that are good within the medical field. There are indeed many Medical Doctors that do support raw milk, natural healing, alternative practices & so on. There are many, many Medical Doctors that work night & day to bring about the necessary changes in medicine, as well as, within the training of medical personnel. No, you won't hear about this within the regular media, but they are very active & do make a significant change that will help spread the needed changes. I have been in the medical field for 30yrs, I have seen the bad things that have come about, but I have also seen the good things that have happened. Today, I encourage everyone to take personal responsibility for their health & health needs & this includes making a better choice not only in their health habits, but who they choose as a healthcare practitioner for the times that it is needed. People need to learn & listen to their bodies, they need to take charge of their health needs & not depend on someone else to correct and/or turn around a health problem that should not have happened in the first place. Find a health practitioner who supports alternative methods and/or treatments, who listens to you & who supports you in your choices. Yes, it may take some time to find this practitioner, but it is well worth it. But, again, it boils down to people becoming much more responsible & active for their health needs. AND, I have to parrot Mark...you CANNOT successfully treat internal bleeding, as well as, a broken back with raw milk, raw meat, juices, etc! That is just ludicrous!!

rawmilkmike's picture

Deb, I know it may sound like I'm arguing semantics but I don't believe I am. I apologize for attaching your profession. My first wife was a very conscientious nurse and my current wife is a loving aid well loved by her residents.

Before I continue, I'd like to back up and ask the reason for even defending the medical profession here in the first place? Isn't it like I said before, in bad taste and who said the medical industry serves no purpose?

OK, now to the semantics. Do we even have words with specific meaning to use in this discussion? Let's see, when I get sick I'd like have health insurance that would cover a visit to a licensed healer that went to a school of healing that could cure me not medical insurance that only covers a visit to a medical doctor that only practices medicine with only a medical license from a medical school that only treats my symptoms if I'm lucky. And please don't get me started on child birth.

I remember when many hospitals closed their emergence rooms probably because there was no money in it, kind of like when Cops get annoyed when called to domestic disputes.

OK, Physician; I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Mark, How much of the $4 trillion a year goes to EMT s and Surgeons doing life saving procedures. This industry is the anti-raw milk lobby. Trust is earned.

Deb, Now at the end of your post it looks like you agree with me. Accept where you speculate as to Aajonus's condition and what he may have been thinking.

rawmilkmike's picture

Deb, if you say "A surgeon is a Medical Doctor that went on to specialize in surgery" then he'd be a snake-oil salesmen too wouldn't he? An MD is by definition is a snake-oil salesmen. A man selling fake cures. I'd call them knockoffs except that they cost more than the originals. If he promotes alternative medicine he's no longer an MD.

Deborah - Pacifica's picture

rawmilkmike - are you serious?!? " if you say "A surgeon is a Medical Doctor that went on to specialize in surgery" then he'd be a snake-oil salesmen too wouldn't he? An MD is by definition is a snake-oil salesmen. " Where did you come up with that? I don't see any such definition!!

medical doctor
Web definitions
A physician—also known as doctor of medicine, medical doctor, or simply doctor—practices the ancient profession of medicine, which is concerned with maintaining or restoring human health through the study, diagnosis, and treatment of disease or injury. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_doctor

Doctor of Medicine (M.D., from the Latin Medicinae Doctor meaning "Teacher of Medicine") - 1. an authorized practitioner of medicine, as one graduated from a college of medicine or osteopathy and licensed by the appropriate board; see also doctor.

Definition of M.D. - MD: Abbreviation for the Latin title Medicinae Doctor, Doctor of Medicine. Sometimes written today as MD (without the period after each letter). All medical schools in the United States and Canada award an M.D. degree, usually after 4 years undergraduate study at a college or university followed by 4 years of medical school.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea where you come up with this stuff!!

rawmilkmike's picture

Deb, please allow me to respond. I do appreciate having you guys to talk to.

At first I wanted to argue the semantics but then I thought, what are we arguing. We agree “there has been much that have added a bad element to the medical field & true, the mega-pharmaceutical companies have gotten so totally out of hand”. And “needed changes.”. You say “I have seen the bad things that have come about” and then “Today, I encourage everyone to take personal responsibility for their health & health needs & this includes making a better choice” in “who they choose as a healthcare practitioner for the times that it is needed. People need to learn & listen to their bodies, they need to take charge of their health needs & not depend on someone else to correct and/or turn around a health problem that should not have happened in the first place(thanks to the medical industries anti-health and nutrition lobby). Find a health practitioner who supports alternative methods and/or treatments, who listens to you & who supports you in your choices. Yes, it may take some time to find this practitioner, but it is well worth it. But, again, it boils down to people becoming much more responsible & active for their health needs. ”.

OK here's a disagreement “There are indeed many Medical Doctors that do support raw milk, natural healing, alternative practices & so on. ”. I think you mean ex-medical Doctors, don't you. Where would such a doctor practice and what insurance plan could he be under. This would require complete secrecy. How would I find him? Could I call him the next time we have a pregnancy in our family? Could he guaranty a natural child birth? And I think you know what I'm talking about. You said “I have also seen the good things that have happened.”. I can't imagine what you could be referring to.

med·i·cine : a substance that is used in treating disease or relieving pain and that is usually in the form of a pill or a liquid(Doctors are no longer taught or even allowed by their lawyers and insurance companies to proscribe food as medicine.)

From your own link:

A physician is a professional who practices medicine, which is concerned with promoting, maintaining or restoring human health...

Both the role of the physician and the meaning of the word itself vary around the world,...

In modern English, the term physician is used in two main ways, with relatively broad and narrow meanings respectively. This is the result of history and is often confusing.

Around the world the term physician refers to a specialist in internal medicine or one of its many sub-specialties (especially as opposed to a specialist in surgery). This meaning of physician conveys a sense of expertise in treatment by drugs or medications, rather than by the procedures of surgeons.[3]
This term is at least nine hundred years old in English: physicians and surgeons were once members of separate professions, and traditionally were rivals.
This original use, as distinct from surgeon, is common in most of the world including the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth countries...

Around the world, the combined term "Physician and Surgeon" is used to describe either a general practitioner or any medical practitioner irrespective of specialty.[3][4] This usage still shows the original meaning of physician and preserves the old difference between a physician, as a practitioner of physic, and a surgeon.

In the United States and Canada, the term physician describes all medical practitioners holding a professional medical degree. The American Medical Association, established in 1847, as well as the American Osteopathic Association, founded in 1897, both currently use the term physician to describe members. However, the American College of Physicians, established in 1915, does not: its title uses physician in its original sense.

And this from my previous post:
Apollo Physician I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice. I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

ingvar's picture

Is this the right place to put this comment?:

It is a 71 page paperback book that may turn your world upside down:
“Victory Over Cancer Part 2: Understanding History, Building the Future”
(ISBN 978-90-76332-77-2 c.2012 Dr. Matthias Rath und Dr. Aleksandra Niedzwiecki).
As described in this short, powerful book, the depravity of the corruption infecting the world of medicine is deep, pervasive, over one-hundred years in the growing, and, accordingly, politically and financially powerful. It also a house of cards in a world of the unfettered pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (happiness, better understood as virtue, without which you ‘aint gonna git to happy noways, nohow). A house of cards, because, my goodness, what’s the downside to say, Wisconsin, or Minnesota, or Illinois, or South Dakota, or St. Croix, USVI, or B.C., if raw milk, and small dairies go forward as we see the potential and demonstration, here? The farm family thrives, the communities thrive, the counties thrive, the states thrive, the customers thrive, what’s to vote against down this road? The infrastructures that underpin all this thrive. So (pardon me here) WTF? The obstacle perhaps is ‘connected’ hence corrupted local elected representatives? Maybe not corrupted? Then maybe- Lazy?, Fearful?, Inept?, Foolish? What’s worth aspiring to in this list? What’s their ‘out’ anyway?’ Prudence? And Judges? And Lawyer Associations? And disease-based industries? If we are characterizable as ‘sheep,’ then, guess what, so are they sheep, doing their own type of following, but following the depraved. I want food that nourishes, and good health. Objectiions? Medicine isn’t going to go away, we need it. &c, &c.

Have a restful weekend,
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard

While we're discussing building regulations saving people's lives (tongue in cheek here), can someone please explain why one cannot have a working toilet in the same room with a "hot water heater and propane fueled boiler "(I'm not sure if one of those is a furnace)?. A friend of mine moved into a house years ago with this arrangement, and was told recently that she should disable the toilet or she could be reported. We couldn't figure out any safety reason for this.
Most building regulations nowadays seem to be mainly revenue-makers. Notice how you must always pay for this or that permit?
I respect Mr. V. for standing by his beliefs, even though I probably wouldn't have taken that road myself. At least he wasn't afraid to die, from the sound of it. That's a great strength.

churchlanefarm's picture

I’m assuming the hot water heater is propane fired as well, so they are likely concerned with the potential for methane working its way back from the septic tank and causing an explosion.

Ken

Apropos of Popular Science feeling the need to circle the propaganda wagons of "science", here's a good piece on how governments and universities are also feeling the heat of democracy, and also trying to muzzle dissent on code-of-omerta grounds.

http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/15092-academic-integr...

This demonstrates the fear they feel that "science" (i.e. the public's confidence in technocracy) will be degraded.

Meanwhile actual science across the board supports agroecology and condemns corporate agriculture.

ingvar's picture

In my opinion, the world, in toto, of M.D. medicine is judged to be viciously anti-health (for what true reason I cannot say). One piece of evidence is “Ignore the Awkward” “How the Cholesterol Myths are Kept Alive” by Uffe Ravneskov, MD, PhD (ISBN1433759409, c. 2010, 154 pp, softcover).

I don’t doubt the positive statements from her 30 years in the field of medicine by Deborah Peterson, I share much of that opinion.

When foundations are corrupted, as the old saying goes, what can the righteous do? If the foundations of the MD world are corrupted, what then? If they are, then it’s not some good and some bad, it’s not even mostly good with a few “bad apples.” If they are, then anyone who wants good health for everybody is at odds with the corruption in the foundation. And that is a VERY different kettle of fish!

If my line here is accurate, how do we prosecute the matter? I pray for wisdom and perseverance for all who would fight this fight.

Here’s to good health for all,
All the best,
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard

rawmilkmike's picture

Well said Mr. Odegaard

D. Smith's picture

The free market should always reign, because it's what controls supply and demand which equals cost. If you wanna see what we shouldn't be doing in the world of subsidized health care, check out this article (short and sweet). I know this is true because I have relatives who live there and confirmed this. I don't think they'll live there much longer, but they sure aren't coming to america . . . ;o)

http://libertycrier.com/what-swedencare-can-teach-us-about-obamacare/

In this instance, a spoonful of sugar will not help the medicine go down. Ingvar, corruption and medicine go together like hell and damnation. In fact, many corporate structures besides medicine fit that bill to a T. One doesn't have to look far to find them.

ingvar's picture

In re. to corrupted foundations in medecine:
If they are, then giving the governmental power of the sword to the world of MDs is a very, very, bad idea.

As Mark says in a different realm, I will say in this realm: dollar vote!, it would be better that WE vote with OUR dollars. As opposed to having voted in representatives who then legislatively distort our lives and have those same representatives, additionally, confirm judges that “seal the deal” when we appeal to the bench and of course, to vote in an executive that goes along too.

Eeek!

If these distortions are to be rolled back, it will be if I wear out my shoes in my precinct. And you in yours.

And teach, teach, teach. (thanks Mark)

Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard

mark mcafee's picture

I am sitting in the International Milk Genomics Consortium conference at UCDavis. Dr Bruce German, the founder of IMGC spoke yesterday. I knew that he supports clean responsibly produced raw milk. But...he came out strong and unequivocally in his presentation yesterday. I was blown away when he said that the FDA and the scientific community have been remiss to disregard the research done in the EU that proves the true medical value of raw milk. He went on to say that raw milk needs the the support of scientists and industry and has great promise for the future of dairy industry and consumers health. To give context.... The room was filled with more than 100 scientists and industry representatives from all over the world!! At the completion of his presentation I gave a standing three minute comment in support of his presentation and providing the market example what raw milk has done in CA. At that point additional comments were made by others about raw milk and its medical values and market comments. Nearly everyone looked at me differently since my comment. I went from unknown to quite popular with tons of questions about how raw milk can be done well.

Another small earth quake in CA.... Very nice to have very public support from the leading milk researchers in the world. Dr German will be speaking next Tuesday at the Chico State RAWMI training day. This is pretty much huge!!!!! For raw milk and rawmi.

mark mcafee's picture

One more little huge thing.... Dr. German shared with me in passing that two months ago the same PBS documentary crew that had interviewed me at length also interviewed him for the same raw milk special that is planned for the spring! Charlotte Smith was also interviewed at length by PBS. Couple this with Dr Oz supporting responsibly produced raw milk and there are the makings of a tipping point that has tipped.

Ora Moose's picture

After reading this article about the outrageous absurd effects of the shutdown on the scientific community, academic research and regulatory oversight system, I can't help but wonder how it is affecting the raw milk world.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/10/what-does-a-federal-shutdown-m...

Mark, any insights you can provide would be greatly appreciated, I'm sure you know a few people that are greatly affected by this political standoff.

(Disclaimer: my wife works at a federal agency and enjoying the time off yet apprehensive about long term consequences.)

rawmilkmike's picture

We're Not Broke 2012 Documentary

http://youtu.be/LhzlQq1oBq0