FDA Hones in On Limiting Raw Milk Camembert, Brie, Despite Absence of a Single Documented Illness in 23 Years
(I have spent much of the last week reading a 189-page report issued jointly by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and Health Canada, with the dry title, “Joint FDA/Health Canada Quantitative Assessment of the Risk of Listeriosis from Soft-Ripened Cheese Consumption in the United States and Canada”. The reading is as dry as the title suggests. It’s full of technical statistical and research terminology, terms like “risk characterization,” “sensitivity analysis,” “mitigation,” “rank correlation,” and on and on. What that meant was that I had to read everything two, three, and four times before I could begin to make sense of it. But the more I read, the more upset I became, because I realized this is a very important document, one that could have a huge effect on food availability. If the authors of this report are successful in accomplishing what they want to accomplish with brie and camembert cheeses, you can be sure they will continue on to other kinds of cheese, and then other entire categories of food products, in their endless search for supposedly serious pathogen dangers. Equally troubling, the FDA considers this report "science based and transparent," when it is anything but. I wrote the following analysis to try to get my thoughts down in an orderly way. I encourage you, after you’ve read my assessment, to try your own hand at reading the report, or at least the summary, and then to take the opportunity the FDA is offering to provide comments, and let the agency know in no uncertain terms what you think about this particular piece of literature. )
Nearly 15 years ago, a business book came out with the strange title, Who Moved My Cheese?
It was the story of mice in search of cheese that had disappeared, a parable about how people need to prepare for change, in their business and personal lives, and it became a huge best seller.
The parable may be playing out literally in real life before too long for raw milk soft cheese, if regulators in the U.S. and Canada have their way. A newly released 189-page report from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and Health Canada concludes that there is “a 50- to 160-fold increase in the risk of listeriosis from a serving of soft-ripened raw-milk cheese, compared with cheese made from pasteurized milk.” As a result, the regulators suggest they want to see raw milk cheeses like camembert and brie either subject to unprecedented testing, processing similar to pasteurization, or else banned completely. I should note they also offer the option of doing away with the 60-day aging requirement for cheese, as a possible way to reduce the time pathogens have to multiply in the cheese, but it’s offered as kind of a straw man, since it “does not consider the effect of removing the regulation on the risk of illness from other pathogens…” (That risk assessment should be worth another few lengthy reports.)
The risk certainly sounds serious…until you read closely the full 189-page report and learn that the FDA-Health Canada conclusion about “a 50- to 160-fold increase in the risk” is based entirely on estimates and mathematical predictions, rather than real-life data on illnesses from the soft raw milk cheeses.
Even more remarkable, the actual real-life data presented in the report of illnesses worldwide from listeriosis in soft cheese over a 23-year period between 1986 and 2008 show not a single documented illness in the U.S. from listeriosis due to tainted brie or camembert. That data, in a table on page 17, documents four outbreaks of listeriosis in cheese in the U.S. over the 23-year period, but all four are from raw milk queso fresco cheese, a soft cheese served fresh, without being aged the required 60 days, and thus illegal in the U.S. (It gets made illegally, often in the Hispanic community, sometimes even mixed in bathtubs, which has earned it the nickname “bathtub cheese.”)
In Canada, two cheese-related outbreaks, which sickened 58 people, are attributable to “multiple types” of cheese.
Indeed, the researchers were only able to document 20 outbreaks of illness from listeria in all cheeses from all kinds of milk worldwide over the same 23-year period—less than one per year…and, according to the report, “half involved cheese made from unpasteurized milk.”
So in actuality, we’re talking about ten listeriosis outbreaks worldwide from raw milk cheeses over a 23-year period—a tiny number by any stretch of the imagination.
By way of comparison, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control documents more than 1,000 outbreaks, resulting in between 15,000 and 30,000 illnesses, from all foods each year in the U.S.
So, given the absence of a single documented illness from 60-day-aged soft raw milk cheeses over 23 years in the U.S., and just the possibility of a few dozen illnesses in Canada, how do the FDA and Health Canada come to their conclusion that such cheeses are up to 160 times more risky than pasteurized soft cheeses? As I recall my grade school math, zero times any number equals zero. The regulators do it via “mathematical / probabilistic modeling… to estimate the risk per serving of Camembert-like cheese in both countries,” according to the report.
The source of their data? “Literature data, previous risk assessments …and expert sources” in Canada and the U.S. What about information from real-life farms and cheese producers? There is none: “Risk was expressed on a ‘per serving’ basis because (of) the lack of data on overall levels of cheese production (particularly for small cheese makers)…”
In the absence of real-life farm or producer data, the report relied heavily on a single study published in 2003 “that include values for both the prevalence and the level of contamination of soft-ripened cheeses in the United States and Canada …from a random sample of cheeses obtained at retail in Maryland and California … as part of a larger survey of ready-to-eat foods.”
Moreover, while the 2003 survey measured the presence of listeria monocytogenes (L. monocytogenes) in various foods, including deli meats and salads, along with assorted cheeses (the overall presence of L. monocytogenes. was 1.82%) there is no mention in the study of any illnesses resulting from the pathogens the researchers found, strongly suggesting that no illnesses resulted from the L. monocytogenes (the sample foods were collected over 14 to 23 months, plenty of time to have recorded illnesses).
So essentially what happened is that the FDA-Health Canada report writers worked backwards, and extrapolated what might happen on farms and at cheese-making facilities, based on the presence of L. monocytogenes shown in the 2003 study of ready-to-eat foods in retail markets. And the summary report notes near the end: “The prevalence and level of contamination in Canada and in the U.S. rely on a single study to infer in-plant environmental L. monocytogenes contamination. Additional information about the prevalence of contaminated lots and contaminated cheeses within lots is needed.”
Despite such obvious and serious limitations, the FDA-Health Canada report spends most of its 189 pages describing complex mathematical formulas and computations and providing diagrams of the cheese making process before, presto, spitting out its conclusion that anyone who consumes a serving of raw milk soft cheese has a significant chance of becoming ill, up to a 160 times greater chance than if he or she ate pasteurized cheese.
All the fancy mathematical gyrations and fear mongering come in the face of a simple and seemingly successful public health initiative implemented after World War II, whereby both the U.S. and Canada require all soft and hard cheeses to be aged a minimum 60 days, to allow for any pathogens that might be present to die off. (Quebec has no aging requirement, meaning that soft cheeses can be sold immediately after production.)
Serious makers of raw milk soft cheeses have long chafed under the 60-day aging requirement, since such cheeses don’t age well in terms of taste, and are best served shortly after production. But American and Canadian makers have learned to adjust—some even using pasteurized sheep, goat, and cow’s milk to avoid the 60-day aging requirement--and as the FDA-Health Canada’s own 23-year analysis showed, there have been remarkably few illnesses.
But the problem gnawing at the FDA, in particular, has been the growing popularity of raw milk, including raw milk cheeses. Actual sales of soft raw milk cheeses in the U.S. aren’t known, but the American Cheese Society reported in a December 2012 survey that 59 per cent of more than 200 respondents to a survey it conducted of members last year said they make raw milk cheese. The ACS has grown to 1,500 members since its founding in 1983.
The current assault on soft raw milk cheeses actually began nine years ago, when the head of the FDA’s dairy division, John Sheehan, concluded as the lead author of a 2004 article in Food Safety magazine, that there were fundamental problems with the FDA’s 60-day cheese-aging rule. New research, he wrote, suggested “that 60-day aging is largely ineffectual as a means of reducing levels of certain pathogens in cheeses. With this information in hand, FDA is now developing a risk profile for raw milk cheeses, which will aid in the Agency’s assessment of the requirements for processing these cheeses.”
There was particular concern, he and his co-authors stated in the article, over listeria in cheese. They wrote about an “action plan” for cheeses that “have resulted in new efforts to improve the safety of cheeses.”
Shift to the report just issued, of which Sheehan is an author. Instead of acknowledging the paucity of recorded illnesses from raw milk soft cheeses during the 23-year period covered by the report, it suggests there is some kind of lurking problem: “The United States and Canada continue to experience sporadic illnesses and outbreaks of listeriosis associated with the consumption of cheese, particularly soft and soft-ripened cheese.” Presumably the “sporadic illnesses and outbreaks of listeriosis” refer to the four outbreaks from queso fresco and the two outbreaks in Canada over the 23-year period. By the way, the report also notes that the overall incidence in the U.S. of listeriosis is “approximately 3 cases per 1 million individuals…” That is very low, especially when compared to something like autism rates, which have soared to one in each 88 children.
As further justification, the report notes that over the same 23-year period “there were a total of 137 recalls of various types of cheeses, of which 108 (79%) were Listeria-related. In Canada from 2004 through mid-2009 there were 15 cheese recalls, of which 11 (73%) were Listeria-related. A wide variety of cheeses were involved in these recalls.”
But as evidenced by the number of outbreaks and illnesses in the U.S. and Canada, those recalls were carried out after cells of L. monocytogenes were discovered in the cheeses, but not as a result of actual illnesses. Recalls nearly always occur well after whatever foods in question have been sold, and thus consumed. And it’s been well established that the presence of small numbers of L. monocytogenes cells rarely cause illnesses; for that reason, the European Union doesn’t institute recalls for food containing small numbers of cells.
Now, I could accept a nearly completely conceptual analysis of this sort (aside from the terrible expense and time sink associated with it) if it was issued with the intent of sparking additional reality-based research. But it’s not. It’s not only a solution in search of a problem, but it has been issued with one intent and one intent only: to fear monger about the supposedly huge risk associated with eating raw milk soft cheeses like brie and camembert…as a lead-in to stricter rules against raw milk soft cheeses.
And the report has succeeded in that respect. A number of publications that cover the food safety arena have picked it up and run with the fear mongering about raw milk cheeses as if it is fact, notably Food Safety News and Barfblog, among others.
What’s most troubling is that the FDA has shown itself so completely opposed to raw milk and raw milk products under any circumstances that it would move to limit or ban such products even without evidence of a single illness. Talk about an ideological commitment.
Consumers have until April 29 to submit comments on this study. I suggest you let the FDA know about any concerns you might have. If there aren’t many comments, you know the FDA will simply assume everyone supports their direction, and their direction is crystal clear after nine years of effort.
**
Natural News has a great story about a Texas farmer who was rescued by angry consumers after he was forced to dispose of 700 gallons of raw milk. The farmer posted a video of the raw milk disposal on YouTube and hordes of angry people phoned local public health officials, who decided the better part of valor was to restore the guy's raw milk permit. The Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund was active in working on behalf of the farmer as well.
This site's mission is to provide news and analysis about food rights and raw milk. Increasingly, our access to privately available food is under attack by government and industry forces that seek to impose their choices on us. The Complete Patient seeks to provide up-to-date information and encourage the development of community to maintain traditional food acquisition options.
We are in deep shit if the FDA has joined forces with those bozos at Health Canada.
Let me rephrase a statement I made a few years back, “I have very little faith in Health Canada’s resolve to sort through the rhetoric, misleading information and so called scientific fact. There appears to be a status quo or mindset if you will that interferes with her ability to be objective and non-partisan”.
If one wish to acquire some insight into Health Canada’s sincerity then read “Corrupt to the Core” by Dr. Shiv Chopra.
http://beyondfactoryfarming.org/get-informed/regulatory-matters/whistleb...
Ken
Great informative site Ken, even describes factory farming. Thanks. I'll be sharing it.
http://beyondfactoryfarming.org/files/BFF_Brochure07.pdf
This is excellent. Brief statements like this inform people better than long drawn out stories. Pictures would be the icing on the cake, as the visual would stay in a persons mind forever. And each time they pick up a piece of meat, the picture of the factory farm would flash through their subconscious.
Elaboration should be used if further inquiry is made (and the courious will almost always ask for more information).
You're right, Ken. We're in deep shit because of just one of those agencies, for sure. Wanna read some interesting stuff? Here's a page with oodles of stuff regarding the shenanigans of the fdUH (most of them written within the last year, so not a bunch of old statistics and junk). He's a good writer, lots of experience in this field, and he pulls no punches.
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/category/fda/
I'm a little perplexed at your hostility to this report, David. Granted, I've only read the executive summary. But I have enough confidence in the American Cheese Society's expertise, their advocacy of raw milk cheese, and their close work with FDA on these regulatory issues to believe that your reading of the report is driven more by fear and anti-government paranoia than by a sober analysis of what FDA is actually saying. (For those not aware, ACS is applauding this report as a victory for science-based regulation, and as a raw milk cheese maker, I would tend to agree with them)
Firstly, John Sheehan is right. I have long maintained that the 60-day rule is arbitrary and often ineffective at reducing the risk of pathogen contamination in raw milk cheese. A more appropriate approach would be a risk reduction based approach, modelled after HACCP, and which accounts for the different types of risk factors associated with each variety cheese depending on its pH development and moisture content.
Also, in the executive summary, there are a few bombshells dropped, that should be cause for celebration for those of us who are advocates of raw milk cheese. The suggestion to get rid of the 60-day rule and replace it with other science-based requirements is just one of the bombshells.
Here's another one. In Table 5 of the executive summary (Impact of Intervention), the intervention of "Raw-milk cheese, if all cheese lots are tested and lots with positive samples are removed" is listed as making raw milk cheese 0.080 (US) and 0.134 (Canada) as times likely to cause an outbreak as pasteurized milk cheese.
In other words, FDA is admitting that raw milk cheese in which every batch is tested for pathogens (and offending lots disposed of) is SAFER than baseline pasteurized-milk cheese (which has a value of 1.00). To take it even futher, FDA admits, in this same table, that this intervention produces safer cheese than sub-pasteurization heat-treatment of the milk (aka "Raw-milk cheese, if process is applied that leads to 3 log10 reduction of L. monocytogenes contamination in incoming milk" which is 7 in the US and 11 in Canada times as likely to cause an outbreak as baseline pasteurized milk cheese)
Yes, its true that if the 60-day rule were abolished it would be replaced with new rules that some might see as being onerous. Personally, I would say its better to embrace this kind of change and work to implement risk-reduction-based practices than to expend our energy fighting FDA over trivial nonsense because of a misguided libertarian ideology.
For the record, I am already required, by the cheese facilities I rent space in, to implement the aforementioned "intervention" (testing every single batch for pathogens... in fact, I test every batch TWICE, once when the cheese is fresh out of the vat, and again after it is 60 days old). I would gladly accept the change that FDA seems to be proposing, if I correctly understand it.
Also, for the record, I do not heat-treat my milk. As the report points out, that is not a very effective step at reducing risk anyways. I only make real raw milk cheese. The Raw Milk Cheesemakers Association (a project of the American Cheese Society) has a definition of raw milk cheese that specifically excludes heat-treatment of the milk. It would be great if this definition became a legally binding standard of identity, to prevent heat-treated cheeses from being deceptively marketed as "raw milk cheese"
Stockholm syndrome.
The HACCP did and does nothing but to intensify and enforce sector consolidation. Earlier this morning I was reading Marion Nestle gushing over how wonderful Michael Taylor is because he was instrumental in getting HACCP installed. Because if Monsanto wants it, it's gotta be good!
I have long despised Marion Nestle. The first time I read some of her information concerning foods and nutrition I thought she was ok, but the more I got to looking at the slant of her interest, the more I disliked her. HACCP is nothing more than a cover/shield for the fdUH and its buddies.
Yes, corporate food outbreaks have increased since HACCP was instituted, but that's irrelevant to the system, since safety was never its intent or goal, just the propaganda of safety. Its real goal, which it has achieved spectacularly, was to escalate concentration in all USDA-controlled sectors.
Monsanto supported this, since CAFOs are one of the most important artificial government-generated markets for all that GMO corn and soy. That's why they signed off on Clinton putting Taylor in the USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service job even though it didn't deal directly with GMOs. That's where he presided over the imposition of HACCP as a fig leaf for big producers and a vicious repression of small ones.
I had the impression that if George Bush had appointed Taylor FDA "food czar", Nestle would have condemned it for what it is - Monsanto brazenly being given indirect but effective control of FDA enforcement. I despise anyone who flip-flops based on which of the two Washington gangs is nominally "in power". All the big-name liberal food writers did just that, however. There's no difference anymore. The corporate state is one monolith.
Russ, ALL markets are artificial social constructs and are ultimately government-generated (or markets generate governments... its a chicken-and-egg type of problem).
I don't understand why you feel the need to make this qualification on markets. It suggests to me that your "Anarchism" is really just a type of de-classed radical liberalism.
Suddenly Mr. "free market" is pretending not to like the term "markets"? I always use terms in their regular English language sense. If two Native American tribes traded, that's a kind of market. I see no reason we can't distinguish between a bottom-up, demand-based market, and a top-down-imposed, supply-based, planned-economy "market", like the entire industrial ag sector, and all corporatism and globalization (including the worker- and fishery-exploiting sushi "market" you proudly support). The fact is that we can easily distinguish them. My program is to abolish all supply-based "trade" and enhance only demand-based trade. Via Campesina agrees, enshrining that as the 4th principle of Food Sovereignty. My terms, like my positions, are always consistent and coherent.
You, on the other hand, flip all over the place, because you vacillate between gratuitously obnoxious radical chic rhetoric and the kind of system bootlicking you evince in your comment about the FDA. That's why your use of terms is also sloppy and undisciplined, as in the "free market" example I alluded to. Your actual practical prescriptions, I grant, are consistent: system appeasement and conformity.
Russ,
My practical prescription is simple. Raw milk CHEESE is more desirable way to deliver the nutrients in raw milk than in its fluid form.
Also, when did I ever say I was in favor of a free market? I've simply pointing out that in a free market, producers are legally liable for injuries their products cause. Would you rather that producers are not legally liable? Should Monsanto not be liable for the damage that their GMOs are causing? You can't have your cake and eat it too here, Russ.
I have no idea what cake you're referring to. But there you go again using the term "free market", as if such a thing has ever existed, could ever exist, or was ever anything but an Orwellian propaganda term.
I want to abolish all corporations, and will spend my life trying to do so.
Since you disagree: In that case, to put it in your terms, yes, Monsanto should play fair like the Econ 101 textbooks say, and the courts should be fair when Monsanto harms the public interest, like the good civics textbooks say. I don't believe either textbook is anything but a pack of lies. But since you seem to believe at least some aspects of them, you're welcome to try to get that to happen. I'd say that goal is even less likely to be achieved than my "extreme" one. I'd say that since the fact is that corporations are psychopaths in principle, humanity has a better chance of abolishing them completely than getting them to play nice.
Russ, cow-shares, community cooperatives, time shares, and other local egalitarian enterprises are also corporations!
Abolishing corporate personhood and the arbitrary privileges it conveys to the 1% is not the same thing as abolishing corporations altogether. You need to draw a distinction there. We need to make corporations accountable to the public, and democratically controlled by the working class. Abolishing corporations will do nothing of the sort. It will just deny us the ability to organize collectively for our common good.
Humans are collectivist by nature. A corporation is simply a collectivist economic entity. Our goal should not be to abolish corporations, but to abolish the privileges and abuses of corporations.
I'm curious, Russ... How would you propose organizing a local collective economic enterprise without a corporate entity of some sort? (It need not be a corporate entity formally sanctioned by the state... there are informal corporations as well)
This is an excellent encapsulation of corporate liberalism, thanks. I agree that if we abolish corporations we'll no longer be able to make them "accountable to the public". That's OK, since in principle they can never be accountable to the public since they're accountable only to profit-seeking, which is part of the reason it's impossible in practice to ever make them accountable to the public.
"Our goal should not be to abolish corporations, but to abolish the privileges and abuses of corporations."
The government-created corporate form is the ultimate corporate privilege, so it's incoherent to say "abolish corporate privilege, not corporations themselves". And there's no such thing as a corporate "abuse". Monsanto has never perpetrated an abuse, not once. Every single thing it's ever done has been exactly what it was designed to do.
But I forget - you're regurgitating the lies of the economics good-civics textbooks. Just like you think the FDA sometimes commits "abuses", and may be "corrupt". But the FDA is not corrupt, and it has never committed an abuse. It does exactly the job any corporatist government bureaucracy is designed to do.
"How would you propose organizing a local collective economic enterprise without a corporate entity of some sort?"
Gee, how did we do it for tens of thousands of years?
But I forget - as a corporatist you assume authoritarian hierarchies as normative. Sorry, I can't answer your question on your terms, since I know all such hierarchies are both undesirable and unnecessary.
And no, a thing like a co-op or herdshare is not naturally a corporation or any kind of formalized, official entity, regardless of what kind of official form this system may force things to take in self-defense. But any small operation of any sort would be far better off if the corporate form ceased to exist completely.
Russ, you are deluding yourself if you think that there wasn't oppression, hierarchy, and class struggle before the rise of modern corporations. All of the ancient civilizations, before the dawn of capitalism, had their own particular forms of class struggle.
I'm not a corporatist, I'm a historical materialist. I don't see any point in trying to reverse the scientific progress which capitalism has brought about. But capitalism needs to be abolished, and it can only be done by the working class organized industrially (not divided by trade, as the conservative business unions do). I guess you could call me a syndicalist, in this regard.
You seem to think that capitalism can be abolished by means other than the action of the working class. Perhaps you'd care to share exactly what your prescription is, other than some mushy buzz words about "community" and " local food"? Everything you have proposed seems to just be a happy lefty-progressive version of laissez-faire liberalism, totally devoid of any class conciousness or awareness of how capital oppresses wage-labor.
"you are deluding yourself if you think that there wasn't oppression, hierarchy, and class struggle before the rise of modern corporations."
Obviously I never said any such thing. As a practical man, I talk about the oppression we have NOW.
You clearly have zero reading comprehension or interest in an actual conversation, but just regard these threads as a place to randomly spew your non-responsive blathering. You also seem not to understand what the terms you cast around actually mean. (This last comment is typical in that regard.) You're a kind of troll. Don't reply to my comments any more. I'm looking for real discussions, and I don't want you mucking up the thread.
Also, I agree with you Russ that there is no such thing as a free market. I just object to your arbitrary distinction between "top-down" and "bottom up" markets. ALL markets are basically just ways of allocating scarce resources based on some socially constructed and oppressive "merit." And all markets are inherintly hierarchical and lead to privilege and oppression, regardless of how local or organic they are.
Our goal should be to abolish scarcity altogether, and by extension, markets.
The role in governance in a free market is to ensure that some due process of transparency is assured in the exchange of goods and services. In our case disclosing the details of production relevent to the interests of consumption. So if there is full disclosure then the agreement is considered fair. Where it is not, then clear limitations of freedom are apparent. That is what we are seeing. I see no reason why Monsanto should be liable for their products if they were clearly labelled GMO. It is because it is not labelled that they should be held liable. Likewise with other aspects of dicslosure of the testing and methods procured toward production of any good. If it made known that "this item is not tested for any pathogens, nor is the facility approved by any third party, and some have suggested that it may make you seriously ill", then it is up to those consuming it to make that choice. That is a free market! When we create the "layperson" and such liabilities associated with such things, we have strangled free market by the inherent inequality it creates. I noticed in Europe people are still responsible for their choices, they don't have baracades in front of hazards like waterfalls. If someone wants to jump, that is their problem, not the state. In North America we want everyon else to be responsible then ourselves for our misfortunes. By putting that responsibility in the hands of others is fundamentally a giving up of our own power of self governance.
I agree with you, Jack. Our nanny state gubment is "helping us" to death. I'm sure it's all part of a bigger plan and that's what's reeeally worrisome.
"The corporate state is one monolith."
This monolith has been around longer than most people think. Russ I'm glad you understand the FDA etc have no legitimacy whatsoever. I'm not sure how you envision a free society looking but I find your posts interesting. Having lived in the global slave prison my entire life, I have speculated and sought guidance to understand what a proper society looked/looks like. You've called my ideas "enclaves" before, but I believe these types of structures I've described were the building blocks of a free society, how people self organized.
I believe Papua New Guinea gives clues to how free people lived. It's one of the last areas on the planet that still has significant natural areas intact, and one of the last areas to have been overrun by the global mob aka the monolith. Anthropologists say over 600 languages are spoken there. People typically live in "villages" linked to "cities". Even though these societies are today radically deformed, what's left holds clues.
I'm confident free people in the past lived both "rural" and "city" lives simultaneously. A totally efficient way to live. Food production was based at your vilage, which typically was located near water, allowing an easy commute to town. Your town allowed the advantages of concentrated society. Typically everyone knew or knew of everyone else. A common language. A "nation'. You knew the neighboring nations, but typically you did not live a gypsy lifestyle, because for one thing, going into unknown areas could be quite dangerous, and make other groups nervous, and understandably so. Also, when you have everything in your own back yard, great organic food, a city festival center, great sex life, great music, art, dance, drama, comedy, a safe place for kids to grow up, your own tools, expert plant knowledge of what exists naturally in your area, pristine forests, clean rivers, ... why would you want to leave this life and go on the road? Most people wouldn't and didn't. I realize today the gypsy lifestyle is very appealing, but that has a lot to do with the fact that we live in a slave farm.
Just to add, leaders of these types of nations were in contact with other leaders, alliances were used, and also you did have a common clearing language aka linga franca at least in certain areas, such as in europe the Celtic language was spoken from Ireland to eastern Turkey...
If I recall correctly, I didn't say your ideas were "enclaves", but rather that I understood you to mean you recommend people focus on creating literal enclaves. I said I thought that wouldn't work, and that people need to focus on organizing the Community Food movement on the basis of grassroots economic and political democracy.
You're right that the vast majority of people don't want to leave the land and their integral communities, until those communities come under vicious assault by corporate power. Only when the people are being forcibly driven off the land and into shantytowns does this self-justifying propaganda, and to some extent the real aspiration, arise.
Meanwhile the vast majority of people in shantytowns, or in labor barracks, would like to return to the land. As we see with the Community Food movement, an increasing number of people from the middle class also want to return, as they see how the "success" of their parents or grandparents was really buying a pig-in-a-poke.
This movement, and the Food Freedom movement in general, will never succeed unless it can solve for BOTH of the following questions:
1. Keeping existing real farmers on the land.
2. Getting the exiled who wish to return and grow food back onto the land.
"...you recommend ... creating literal enclaves. I thought that wouldn't work, and that people need to focus on organizing the Community Food movement on the basis of grassroots economic and political democracy."
Russ, I think you are trying to build a new society upon the infrastructure of this present system, but this present system uses a totally deformed structure, designed along divide and conquer lines. That's why I brought up what natural Nations looked liked, "rural" and "city" integrated.
The idea of "farmers" living out in the country in a "single family home", with no one around for miles, is totally unnatural for our species. That's one of the first things people learn who try to "return to Nature". And the present "cities" and "suburbs" are just as deformed, everything revolves around the big oil car lifestyle, you can't even walk down the street without having to constantly look over your shoulder so you don't get hit by one of these toxin belching 3000 lb mostrocities... The "single family home" is designed to keep people sitting in front of a tv, and getting in the car to go buy some food from strangers, and then it's off to a slave job to pay for it... again this is all divide and conquer tactics. Some people today are trying to raise fish in their living rooms, grow food on the roof, etc... to deal with this.
My approach is to face reality, and rebuild, based on the ancient common sense approach to how to organize space. People always did live in enclaves to some degree, it was your extended family-then your village- then your Nation, I've written about that in this blog... The whole marriage contract nuclear family single "family" home idea is just more of the deformed divide and conquer structure that has been imposed on people around the globe.
So if I understand your basic approach, it is to build on a fundamentally flawed foundation, that will keep people isolated and fragmented and living very inefficiently to a large extent. My approach is to correct the problems from the ground up, without the need to reinvent the wheel. So you set up a "family" sized community in the country, and bridge it to an existing city. And you go from there...
"Russ, I think you are trying to build a new society upon the infrastructure of this present system"
Name a single thing I've said which gives you that idea.
Russ, a key question you need to ask yourself, if you want to build a new society, is: How many people can sit down and talk to each other?
People today think in terms of talking to hundreds, thousands, millions... that's what you see on tv. But that's not talking to each other, that's broadcasting. It's basic to how this slave prison we live in is designed. They forced you into prisons called schools when you were a little person, and broadcasted at you. Never mind what you think. Then you get a job and someone is telling you what to do, or you get fired. You come home exhausted and the tv is broadcasting "news" at you. You go and vote for "your leaders", but only a few guys get to be in the debates, in a country of 300 million. Who decided that?
The fact of the matter is, if you want to sit down and talk with people, a circle of about 25 or less works, any larger and it's just too many voices, you can't have an intimate discussion where EVERYONE gets to say what they think. So what I've been shown is if you want to rebuild, that is the next fractal size, the next expression of the seed. So if people can create a group of 25, you have really done something. And once this catches on, you can take it to the next level, and leaders of each group can meet at the next level, 600 or so people represented, And EVERYONE gets to be heard, throughout the entire grouping. You would have created basically a village at that level. And then you go from there.
OR, people can continue on their present path, send a letter to your congressman, see if you can get two mintutes of the mayor's time, "stay informed" by watching "politicians" debate, while you get to say nothing... This whole present system is set up to insure a tiny group controls the masses, and so whoever controls the spy apparatus, the media, the money... controls the whole herd.
So talk of organizing based on "grassroots economic and politically democracy", what does that mean if people don't understand that only 25 people can talk to each other at a time?
With whom are you arguing?
lol Russ, peace man. I always appreciate reading your ideas. I'm trying to place pieces on the table that I think are missing. I think it's great you are supporting small farmers and see the FDA etc as they really are, etc etc... ignore what doesn't apply to you.
To rephrase: when I ride my bike from my five acres, 45 miles out, into town, I pass big farms, and little farms, and single family homes... and I get into town and there are all these single family homes and apartment buildings and businesses and cars cars cars everywhere. Nowhere along this 45 mile trip from "country" to "city" do I see what I have been talking about, people living in real communities, doing things the easy way.
This present separation between the food supply and the city is artifically created. So I've been talking about a concrete way to link the two, but you have to rebuild a bit to do it. If I need a well on the five acres, that's a lot of money, but if I could have found 24 other people to buy five acres each in unison, a well is small change. Land per acre would have been a lot cheaper. I can't have a dairy cow really, well with 25 it'd be a heck of a lot easier. We could have a small herd. Sharing resources while still respecting individual space, offers a lot of advantages. I'm surrounded on the five acres by neighbors with vicious dogs and floodlights and crackheads and excons... I could have been surrounded by a nature preserve, with 125 acres... I'm figuring out seeds, but with 25 it'd be a lot quicker... a community kitchen, baking five loaves of bread isn't that much more work than baking one, someone milks the cow and makes butter and cheese for everyone, someone butchers a goat, learn how to make sausages, bake four apple pies fresh instead of one...
When you talk about democracy and local foodsheds, I don't really know what you mean. Do you mean joining the branch office of that group known as "the government"? Running as their mayor? Voting at the farmer's market with your cash? Hanging out with local farmers and comparing notes?
What I've been outlining is a very focused way to regroup. Everyone gets to sit in circle and be heard. 25 people is a small army. If we come under attack for producing real milk lets say, we could get the word out in various ways, and sell the community idea in the process. These groups could multiply and form alliances as we would all face the same types of issues. People could buy an old house in town and convert it into little soundproof rooms, so you can live city and country at low cost.
All that sounds good, and is similar to my ideas. The separation of town and country is one of the most pernicious aspects of this system which we need to overcome.
I agree, we must do all we can as individuals and families and groups of friends to do the right thing to make our lives more free, prosperous, and healthful. That means growing and processing our own food as much as possible, and beyond that getting our food from local farmers and processors, and getting to know them personally. But at the same time we're doing that we need to organize an economic and political movement to realize the full strength of Community Food and defend it against its increasingly aggressive enemies.
When I say organize local democracy (or organizing anything), I always mean first that we form our own bodies outside the system. These could take many initial forms - local food groups, sustainability groups, local economy groups, political reading and discussion groups, anti-corporate resistance groups, etc. Their main traits would be: Insistence upon the truths of economics (that all sectors, and especially food, are naturally mostly of completely local/regional, with broader trade as only an appendage) and politics (that political sovereignty exists only at the soil level, and can never legitimately be usurped up a hierarchy); rejection of the legitimacy of alien hierarchies (corporate and government); and the will to resist them in any way possible.
In the case of food, that means organizing for public education about food issues, forming networks of local producers and eaters, building the input, distribution, and processing infrastructure local food needs, organizing local/regional seed-saving and soil-building at a professional skill level, organizing for mutual aid in the case of hardship and mutual resistance in the case of enemy assaults.
These are the kinds of organizations we need to form spontaneously at the local level. So far there are many such groups, though they exist at varying levels of commitment to relocalizing economies and polities. Most are still hybrids, wanting partial relocalization but also to varying extents accepting the fraudulent legitimacy of alien hierarchies.
This leads to the second element, that there needs to be a coordinating movement, to coordinate the confederation of such groups and encourage their philosophical and strategic development. In the long run, for a coherent and continentally coordinated Food Freedom movement, I think the right organizational form will be something like this: Principles and strategy are agreed upon. Publicity and operational goals would be partially coordinated, partially decided locally. Tactics would be decided locally, with coordination of advice.
As for local governments, Food Freedom organization needs to be independent of these, but should pressure them and take them over to whatever extent possible. I think it's impossible to "reform" higher levels of government, but in many places local government can be, not "reformed" (under no circumstances should democracy consider any governmental form to be sufficient; this complacency is what always kills democracy), but put to the goals of freedom and democracy. Optimally, the local/regional movement would assert more and more power itself, completely independently of the official "government".
@ tomm: I know this has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand, but you and I have talked about Native Americans in past posts here and I have no other way to contact you, so I thought maybe you, in particular, and possibly Sylvia too, may be interested in viewing these photos of the Wind River Indian Reservation (today, not in years past). They are poignant, sad, scary - and some are even somewhat beautiful from a "nature" view - such blue skies and lovely clouds and even a little green grass! There are 54 photos and the explanations for each are at the top of the photo page. First there is a short intro page and then you click on a link to get to the photos. After the 54 photos there's another interesting article with photos (aerial) of oil extraction in a different, somewhat secretive manner. That might interest you, as well.
http://www.businessinsider.com/wind-river-indian-reservation-in-wyoming-...
When I try to tell people about the horrific conditions on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation (in SD) about 60 miles SE of where I live, they don't believe what I tell them. So then I have to drag out photos, and still they are hesitant to believe the crushing poverty. It's ironic to find that situation so close to Mt. Rushmore, which is 25 minutes from my front door. Very ironic, indeed.
D. Smith,
For some, reality is painful. The "Rez" in the southwest and Oklahoma is the same. Drug & alcohol abuse run rampant. Physical, emotional and verbal abuse is high also. The indians have their own gangs and they aren't any nicer than the gangs in any other town.
When I was a kid, at grandma's in Oklahoma, she always got her meat from the back of the store, the meat in the cases in the front of the store was for whites that came. My mother was tolerated because she was married to my dad. I never asked what the difference was, as a kid, I figured that was just how things were. I do recall when the govt built some homes and 'gave' them to the locals, I think the mortgage was less than $10/month, grandma said, they'd tear the houses up in less than a year and they'd be unlivable. Sadly she was right.
I've not worked on any reservation. A traveling nurse friend has. She was gang raped and badly beaten in the Four Corners area *I know that can happen anywhere). I have a friend in Illinois, he is Shawnee, and seems to always be romanticizing the indian lifestyle. That's the reality he wants to believe. There were many tribes that were quite vicious,amongst themselves and with other tribes. Like all cultures, there good and bad people in them. For many, they cannot live with a foot in each world. You leave the Rez, you are an outcast when you try to come back.
The Canadian Oil Sands is a blatant rape of the land and environment.
@ Sylvia: For sure some of the tribes were vicious. The Sioux (now called the Dakota or Lakota) were the miscreants of the "Dakota Territory". The Shoshone were supposedly quite accomodating. The Mandan Sioux were extremely accomodating. So white people had to be on their guard all the time because they didn't know one tribe from another sometimes.
That Canadian oil thing is supposed to be a reclaimation project, but I don't care what they say the land is never the same when they're through. The very idea that the machinery they're using to haul stuff is so huge they had to build special roads and bridges just boggles the mind. How can they possibly think things will ever be normal in that region again? I thought it was interesting that the guy who wrote this and took the photos was only allowed to do this from up above. Talk about a birds-eye view! You'd think the company would rather have had him on the ground where less of their pillaging was on display.
If I recall correctly, some tribes dressed up as other tribes and attacked not only whites, but other tribes as well. I guess it was their own version of a Boston Tea Party.
Reclamation? Ha! I wouldn't be surprised if they just bury everything, literally. I saw photos of several abandoned fracking pads, I think it was somewhere in Colorado. Wondered what condition the local water and environment was left in. Very sad.
Yes and if the white people wanted the Indians to be blamed for something they (the whites) actually did, the whites would dress up as Indians as well. They did this often in order to steal Army munitions from a detail of soldiers, or to threaten white settlers into giving up their belongings. The Indians would be blamed (although they had no idea which tribe(s) to blame!) when in fact it was whites.
D. Smith,
It's a shame that many (especially those in power) didn't learn from history. Or is it the people, didn't learn and thus those in power get away with repeating history?
thanks D Smith for the Indian reservation photos. i've only once been on one, in south florida. But I was with a group of traditional Natives that did not live on reservations, (they've never surrendered actually, I guess they could be called illegal aliens), and I was with a big group, so it was a safe setting. I have heard the kinds of things posted here and in that article, drugs everywhere... Always be careful.
Maybe you've already met or will meet some special Native people.
@ tomm: Oh yes, I know lots of Indian folks. My husband and I have been studying ethnobotany for several decades now - it's just a hobby. But the Indians of this area know botany better than anyone. We live in an area where there are many elders still alive but probably not for too much longer and that's where we go for our information - for now. In early October of 2010 my husband and I were invited to a Cord Ceremony for one of my day care infants, which is a HUGE honor - it was a truly fascinating experience and was done, as much as possible anyhow, according to the old traditional way. The baby received his Indian name and that was an interesting procedure.
We were there from sunrise to sunset, as requested, and it was cold as hell! THey had real chokecherry juice made by the women of the two families of the parents, and pemmican and several other old native dishes, and then they had newer fangled stuff like fry bread and indian tacos, etc. We had the opportunity to visit with many of the elders and it was inspiring. I can still smell the burning sage . . . lovely.
@ tomm: Oh yes, I know lots of Indian folks. My husband and I have been studying ethnobotany for several decades now - it's just a hobby. But the Indians of this area know botany better than anyone. We live in an area where there are many elders still alive but probably not for too much longer and that's where we go for our information - for now. In early October of 2010 my husband and I were invited to a Cord Ceremony for one of my day care infants, which is a HUGE honor - it was a truly fascinating experience and was done, as much as possible anyhow, according to the old traditional way. The baby received his Indian name and that was an interesting procedure.
We were there from sunrise to sunset, as requested, and it was cold as hell! THey had real chokecherry juice made by the women of the two families of the parents, and pemmican and several other old native dishes, and then they had newer fangled stuff like fry bread and indian tacos, etc. We had the opportunity to visit with many of the elders and it was inspiring. I can still smell the burning sage . . . lovely.
Wow, if their blockade comes to fruition, store bought cheese will be deleted from my pantry.
People roll their eyes when they read about the racial "studies" of the Nazi SS, but this is of the exact same character, and has the same domination imperative. Yet there are still some who will want to separate the allegedly good parts of FDA action from the "abuses".
"So essentially what happened is that the FDA-Health Canada report writers worked backwards, and extrapolated what might happen on farms and at cheese-making facilities..."
Before they got there, they worked backward from their basic mandate and mission: Aggrandize the corporate/industrial sector, assault its economic and political challengers.
"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance."
This has got to stop.
The cows, the goats, and the grasses they eat, and the foods then prepared, predate these swarms of Officers.
And I pay for these swarms?
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
The American Cheese Society (ACS) is in the process of reviewing the FDA/Health Canada Risk Assessment, and we have not yet drawn any conclusions about the assessment. We will be responding with our official comments through the Federal Register in the coming weeks. The comment period for public input ends April 29, 2013. ACS’s Regulatory & Academic Committee of scientists, legal advisors, researchers, academics, cheesemakers, and other industry experts is currently reviewing the report and determining its potential impact on producers. We will advise our members when our statement is submitted.
ACS strives to work collaboratively and professionally with regulators and FDA. In response to our correspondence with FDA’s John Sheehan in December 2012 (see http://tinyurl.com/d3r3rh9), ACS was contacted and invited to FDA’s pre-publication stakeholder briefing on the risk assessment, which allowed us to prepare our members for its February 11 release.
ACS survey data cited in this blog post can be found at http://tinyurl.com/cw4fayh.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/spinach-recall-taylor-farms-e-c...
Spinach again. Where's the out cry to boil it before selling?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvQvz5uPPZk&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV7am_97k30
The first one is more informative.
Sylvia,
Just an FYI and simple request: I always appreciate your comments and links, but when you post links before any text, clicking on your comment takes me to the link, not to your comment. I would suggest that you post your comment text before the link, and then when we click on the comment will take us to the comment rather than directly to the external link. Thanks.
Ora, no problem, will try to remember to do that in the future.
So in light of disappointing actions on behalf of government agencies, it is sure nice to come across something positive by another government agency. Hold on to your hats...the city of San Diego allows a city dweller, yep that's right, those of us that live in a single family dwelling within the city of San Diego, to be able to own two miniature goats!! So for those of us living in San Diego, here's a way to have 2 milk producing Does to keep & maintain in our backyards to provide us with fresh raw milk for consumption & to make into luscious raw milk products of butter, cheese, kefir, yogurt, etc.
I just found this out today! Interestingly this is not common knowledge (no surprise there!), it is not freely advertised, but if one does the research, they will find the ordinance for allowing this.
Hope this link works: http://sdfoodpolicy.org/downloads/SD_City_Keeping_Goats.pdf
Deborah, as you suggest, the main hope for enacting change affecting food regulation is at the local level. The further away our rulers get, the less responsive they become. The FDA-Health Canada report I analyzed here is a classic case of distant government bureaucrats being so disdainful that they wouldn't even bother to go out and gather real data from real farms and producers--they used a single unrelated secondary study as the basis of their decree that soft raw milk cheeses are up to 160 times more dangerous than pasteurized cheeses. Totally pathetic.
David, I think you are wrong about this. FDA is out there all the time gathering data on the occurrence of listeria in food processing facilities, including cheese facilities. That's why they are so aggressive in swabbing when they do inspections.
You shouldn't base your understanding of listeria risks only on the occurence of outbreaks. Outbreaks happen because other mechanisms for preventing listeria-contaminated food from reaching the public fail. Most cheese makers I know have had to deal with listeria problems at one time or another. Its not a question of if, its a question of when, and how do you deal with it when it happens?
Listeria contamination is a very serious matter. Simply saying "it hasn't killed anyone yet" is not good enough. We need prevention, not reaction.
Bill, you are correct, FDA "is out there all the time gathering data on the occurrence of listeria in...cheese facilities." So obviously, they have lots of data. In that case, why did they do a 189-page, multi-year assessment that took its data on the presence of listeria from a single non-FDA study that looked at cheese being sold at retail? There are only three reasons I can think of. Either the FDA's own data showed very little in the way of listeria presence, or else the FDA-Health Canada people conducting the study are very sloppy in their research approach, or else the researchers had a result they wanted to achieve in mind when they began the study. I'd suggest you think critically about what's happening here, not ideologically. I was examining this study as an outsider trying to understand the research methodology behind very provocative findings, not to criticize the FDA. The methodology is so questionable that you have to wonder about the findings...especially when they proclaim a terrible danger of anything (and that would include pasteurized cheese).
David,
Without devling into the methodology (I will leave that job to the experts at ACS) I really fail to see what is so provocative about these findings. We know that, all other things held equal, raw milk cheese is more likely to harbor pathogens than pasteurized milk cheese. That's not a surprise. It also doesn't surprise me that if raw milk cheese undergoes an stepped-up testing protocal, it becomes safer than baseline pasteurized milk cheese.
What's the big deal here? These finding square with my own common sense understanding of the relative risk factors. I think you are the one who is motivated by ideology.
Bill, is there anyone you won't attack on here? Guess I should consider myself lucky (so far.)
It was relatively quiet and civil when you disappeared for a while over the holidays, I was wondering if you had been banned. Not that I believe in banning anyone but if you haven't noticed yet, multiple people have asked you to stop replying to their posts. Please add me to that list.
Any scientist will tell you, if you can't trust the methodology, you can't trust the results. (The methodology description is the lynchpin of any scientific paper.) And if you can't trust the results, well, what can you trust? Yes, it comes back to your own personal "common sense understanding,"your own opinion, which is always what it's all about with you...and yes, up to 160 times more likely to cause illness is a provocative statement for any food.
I'm really getting sick of repeating myself, David.
160 times more likely to cause illness is for raw milk cheese which does not have any safety precautions other than those already taken for pasteurized cheese.
In other words, if we were to take the same raw milk meant for pasteurization, that normally goes into the pasteurizer, and make raw milk cheese out of it, it would be 160 times more likely to cause an illness than if we had pasteurized that same milk.
If we test the raw milk for pathogens, and don't use milk that tests positive, then the raw milk cheese is only 2 times more likely to cause an illness than if we had pasteurized it.
If we test the raw milk cheese itself for pathogens, it is LESS likely to cause an illness than if we had only pastuerized it and not tested the cheese.
I fail to see what is so provocative about these statements. Like I said, I think you are the one who is motivated by ideology, not me.
Also, David, the FDA admits at the end of the executive summary that there are limitations to their model.
I think you are jumping the gun here, just looking for a reason to polemicize against FDA. I certainly have my gripes with FDA and some of their policies (i.e. "no significant difference" between rBGH and non-rBGH milk? seriously?) but I just do not see this as being something worth making a big deal about. If anything, this report will be favorable to raw milk cheese makers who have a HACCP plan and follow best practices.
Perhaps your issue is that you don't think that raw milk cheese makers should have to test their cheese for pathogens, and that you'd rather just keep the 60-day rule in place even though it is often ineffective and arbitrary.
I continue to be perplexed at your knee-jerk reaction to this report. If this same report had been put out by a pro-raw milk organization I think you wouldn't be so hostile to it.
Bill
David gave a well thought out critical evaluation of the report. I didn’t sense any hostility.
Ken
David is grasping at straws, Ken. As a raw milk cheese who specializes in soft-ripened cheeses, I do not find this report threatening to what I do for a living. Yes, abolishing the 60-day rule will mean that there will be new requirements, but I'd rather deal with demonstrating food safety through a HACCP-type program than with the current arbitrary and ineffective 60-day rule. This report is simply the first step in that direction.
excuse the typo... as a raw milk cheese MAKER who specializes in soft-ripened cheeses...
Bill, a producer that supports unnecessary regulation is not a friend to the consumer and is obviously only interested in making things more difficult for his competitors. A lie is still a lie Bill.
Mike, I'm afraid that you don't know me very well. I'm not trying to "stifle the competition", as it were. I'm WAY too small for that. I could see you making that argument if you were talking about (for example) Roth Kase, Grande, Saputo, or one of the larger specialty cheese makers in Wisconsin. But for someone my size? No way.
I'm primarily interested in the public reputation of raw milk cheese. If we see many outbreaks associated with raw milk cheese, it will give responsible cheese makers, such as myself, a bad rap. I have no problem with competition. I do have a problem, however, with producers do not take food safety seriously.
Bill, if you do even a little research on diarrhoea you will find it's a symptom of malnutrition and has nothing to do with so called pathogens. So you can waste as much time as you like fighting bugs and it will not affect the number of outbreaks. I don't know anyone that avoids raw milk because there afraid of diarrhoea so even if you could reduce outbreaks it wouldn't help your sales. The only reason I have such a problem with this bug nonsense is that it is a tool of the ruthless corporation that would force us to buy their worthless product.
Bill, over the years I've occasionally bought raw milk cheese but I seldom ever ate any of it. Even if I did it would never take the please of raw milk. The same is true for my children, yes they like cheese but it can't take the place of their tippy cup. This is the only reason I argue with you over your anti-raw milk statements.
I am not against raw milk, Mike.
Perhaps the reason you didn't like raw milk cheese is because you haven't tasted a good one. It takes a skilled and experienced cheesemaker to make high-quality full-flavored raw milk cheese.
I'm sure that's true Bill. I've always been a fan of the cheese sandwich mostly when I eat out and sometimes at home.
Bill, as a businessman you always have the option to switch from cheese to aluminum siding but as a consumer I do not have that option since I don't need any siding but I do need healthy food for my family.
I'm not a businessman, Mike. I'm a cheesemaker. I don't know the first thing about aluminum siding.
You are absolutely correct, David. Perhaps we need to concentrate on making significant changes locally rather than further away. This particular ordinance is fairly new, having been changed from a previous stricter ordinance. I am very interested in finding out who all were involved in making this change. This can be used as a great example on how to go about making local changes that are more open to those who want to be more self-sufficient within their own backyard. Now, I don't know about current San Diego ordinances with regards to chickens, but I did have my own modest flock (6 hens) when I lived in Phoenix.
Also, David, the "decree" that soft raw milk cheeses are 160 times more risky is based on the assumption that there are no "interventions."
As I pointed out above, with the "intervention" of testing every single batch for pathogens, and discarding offending batches, the FDA's predictive models show that soft raw milk cheeses can actually be SAFER than baseline pasteurized milk cheeses.
This finding is actually very favorable for raw milk cheese makers. As a matter of best practices, it is advisable to test every single batch for pathogens. (As I said above, I test my cheeses twice, once fresh out of the vat, and again when they are done aging.)
I'm still perplexed at why you are so hostile to this report. Are you suggesting that we keep the 60-day rule in place? What I find most compelling about this report is that FDA is suggesting that if we got rid of the 60-day rule it would actully enhance food safety of raw milk soft cheeses. I know raw milk cheese makers who have been arguing this for years at industry events, and they are finally getting some official acknowledgment for what they have been saying.
All the testing being done for microbes such as listeria and e coli is all for not if regulators continue to endorse and promote practices that screw up and disable people’s immune systems.
There was a bake sale at school about a month ago and my son’s classmate suffered an allergic reaction, went into anaphylactic shock, and almost died. The culprit??? Shellfish, shrimp to be exact.
One of the parents decided to wash and reuse one of those plastic shrimp ring trays in order to package the cookies in. Up until this point there was only a ban on peanuts it has now been extended to shellfish.
This child although he had previously eaten shrimp in the past had not reacted to it, so what prompted him to all of a sudden develop an allergy to shrimp?
Food allergies including susceptibility to microorganisms in those same foods such as peanuts, milk and shellfish etc. are becoming more and more of a problem. They are one and the same and although we can attempt to mitigate the problem by testing, restricting or banning the foods deemed responsible, such actions are merely a stopgap measure that fails to address the crux of the issue. In the meantime this escalading quagmire we find ourselves in continues to get worse.
I do not trust the FDA nor their half ass backwards “predictive models”.
Ken
I don't know about you, Ken, but I wouldn't want a cheese with peanuts or shellfish in it. Cheese is only supposed to have 4 ingredients: milk, lactic cultures, rennet, and salt. Anything else is an adulterant, as far as I am concerned.
And MPCs and NFDM (milk protein concentrate, non-fat dry milk) do not count as "milk" in my book, although they are officially accepted by FDA as part of the Federal standard of identity for SOI cheeses, unfortunately. They should not be. The only reason that MPCs are used so much in cheese vats is to depress farm bulk milk prices.
The crux of the issue is that these - allergies, large-scale microbial outbreaks, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc. - are all diseases endemic to industrial food. Therefore the only solution is to stop eating industrial food. The solution is available - Community Food - the moment the people decide to make that eocnomic and political choice.
Meanwhile industrial bureaucracies like the FDA were designed to deal with industrial systems, and mostly to aggrandize rather than "police" them. By now, like all bureaucracies, they only aggrandize congealed power and police challenges to it. It's impossible to solve a problem using something inherent to the problem, and it's impossible to solve a problem using something dedicated to making the problem worse. For both those reasons, it's impossible for any government bureaucracy to do anything but make the problem worse.
The only way to solve this problem, which is rapidly becoming an existential crisis, is for the people directly to solve it themselves. That's why we need to build our own local/regional food systems and organize the cultural and political movement of, by, and for those systems.
I would have thought washing the plastic tray would have washed any allergens off. I wonder if the plastic absorbs stuff?
"can attempt to mitigate the problem by testing, restricting or banning the foods deemed responsible, such actions are merely a stopgap measure that fails to address the crux of the issue."
You are so right, the problem is only increasing and the list of allergic items is growing. Instead of finding the cause, they are only ignoring it or slapping a band-aid on it. The problem is still there and festering.
Allergic reactions are an immune response. What is causing the numbers of them to become so severe? Is it the increased amount of vaccinations children get? The adulterations to our food systems? The contamination of our water, environment? I would bet that it is a combination of assaults. I know some say allergies have a genetic link, I think that genetics plays a very small role if at all in the cause of allergies.
http://www.foodallergens.info/Facts/Reactions/Reaction-to-Food.html
http://home.allergicchild.com/what-is-an-allergy/
Sylvia, years ago I worked for a small company that manufactured contamination detection equipment that was installed at Coca Cola plants worldwide.
Here in the USA, we melt down our 2 liter bottles and recycle but do not refill them. The rest of the world uses a thicker walled 2 liter bottle that does get washed and refilled. Unlike glass bottles, you cannot wash plastic bottles at high temperatures or pressures, and plastic walls are porous so... they do get ingrained with unsavory flavors and pathogens.
If you want to test this notion just fill any plastic bottle with ammonia or gasoline, then try to get that smell out. You can't, no matter how many times you wash it. Same with food pathogens.
"Allergic reactions are an immune response. What is causing the numbers of them to become so severe? Is it the increased amount of vaccinations children get? The adulterations to our food systems? The contamination of our water, environment? I would bet that it is a combination of assaults."
I would bet right along with you. All we can do is try to avoid exposure to the toxic substances in everyday products never mind our foods, but it is getting increasingly hard to do that and will get even harder because of politics and limits on truth labeling like GMO, irradiated, washed in ammonia etc.
Ora,
That is good to know. I would assume that the plastic containers bought in stores and Tupperware also harbor pathogens. Mom was unknowingly right all along, she disliked anything plastic, everything went into glass or stainless steel.
You are right, avoiding these exposures is getting harder all the time.
In Illinois you have to bring your own container to the farm and fill it, to be able to buy real milk. I've been using two glass gallon bottles, and one plastic. I noticed the plastic one starts to smell after a while, not the glass. so I threw it out. Will need to buy that third glass one.
My land is in Florida but I'm still stuck here in Illinois with the kin, and have had to borrow my dad's car and drive one hour round trip to get this milk. It's really disgusting, I got rid of the car 25 years ago, and here I am rolling the dice with my life driving that thing, just to be able to drink real milk. That's the government's idea of safety. 50 000 deaths and many times that in serious illness every year from cars. My good friend was killed at age 25 by a car. My grandma's sister and husband were killed in a car crash... but the FDA is going to protect me from cheese and milk... Give me a break. These scumbags even removed the passenger train from Chicago (used to be the train center of the country) to Florida. There is NO TRAIN now, You have to take a train to Washington and then another one south to get to Florida , and that only gets you to Jacksonville, then you need a bus to get to Gville. 60 hours for a 16 hour trip.
Why did they get rid of trains? Because they are so much more efficient fuel wise than cars or buses, the whole thing is in the slipstream. The last thing the estab wants. Also they put all the greyhound stations in ghettos usually, Orlando, MIami, Gainesville, ... to further discourage living without a car. And of course trains are so comfortable, you can walk around...
I could pick up more milk and give it to my relatives, on these life threatening car rides I take to the farm, but my relatives are afraid to drink raw milk, due to the various scumbags that slander it. All my relatives have severe calcium deficiencies btw.
Re allegies, don't forget antibiotics, even the unmarked ones they dope the animals with that ends up in the food, killing off intestional microbes, altering your body chemsitry...
Tomm, I think that the reason they got rid of trains, and they are constantly attacking funding for other types of public transit, is because of America's individualistic culture. The more people are atomized, individualized, and realiant upon their own private property (as opposed to public, common property) the easier people are to manipulate and control and drive into poverty.
Its a simple case of neoliberal free-market capitalist oppression. And its precisely why I object to the "libertarianism" of this movement.
Actually, Bill, the current road system is far more the result of socialistic/central planners than anything to do with individual, free market capitalism. The gov't wanted a car (now three) in every garage, 6 lines in every city, etc. because it spurred/spurs "economic growth." The gov't keeps oil artificially cheap through endless overseas interventions and wars and bribes (foreign aid). The government taxes and taxes and taxes to pay for roads, bridges, etc. To try even for a moment to somehow think that our current transportation model is somehow rooted in free market capitalism is just loony, Bill.
But that is your game, blame everything bad on things that don't even exist, since gov't is your personal lord and savior.
Aka, all of this has almost nothing to do with what individual's would have chosen in a free-market society without market intervention and skewing.
Russ nailed you the other day, and it is good to see others pointing out your vacillating and nonsensical nor factual positions. This comment, like so many others, just continues to highlight then when you speak, your biases not facts spew forth in abundance.
John,
Guess who profits from selling cars? That's right, capitalist corporations.
Guess who profits from (bona fide) public transit? That's right... NO ONE. But public transit does help people, nonetheless.
The highway system was built by and for the military-industrial complex. Every socialist that I know is absolutely opposed to the military-industrial complex, and is in favor of public transportation of the type that Tomm Culhane is talking about. That you can charactize a system which fetishizes private ownership of cars as "socialistic" speaks to how poorly you understand socialist philosophy.
You seem to believe (falsely, of course) that capitalism is or was at one time based upon this mythical "free-market." I have a revelation for you, John: markets pre-existed capitalism, and they will probably continue to exist after capitalism has crumbled. Capitalism has nothing to do with markets, it has to do with CAPITAL and the particular set of socio-economic relations which it entails, namely, the relationship between capital and wage-labor.
Do yourself a favor and study the history of Fordism. Fordism, in a nutshell, explains how Americans came to be so car-dependent. Our "car culture" has absolutely everything to do with capitalism. Doesn't matter that it was "centrally planned." Capitalism has ALWAYS been centrally planned to one degree or another. To deny this is ahistorical.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordism
tomm,
A few years ago, I took the train from Sacramento,Ca to Atlantic City,NJ. The seats were comfortable, the views awesome and that's about the only nice things I have to say about it. I attempted to eat one meal on the train (I am grateful I was wise enough to pack my own food for the trip), the food served was microwave crap, I did not eat it. While the ride was ok, and most people were very nice on the train, it took too long to get from point A to point B. (It was 4-5days) It was NOT a cheap ride. If I wanted to visit family in Arkansas, I'd have to change trains several times and it would take longer. Ridiculous. I can understand why people would rather drive or fly to their destinations. There is no incentive to use the trains for long distances.
"There is no incentive to use the trains for long distances.":
I'm not sure if you guys are agreeing with me or disagreeing. If you lived without cars, you would see very clearly what I'm saying. They have diliberately screwed up the train system because it is such an efficient simple way to move around if you live without a car. As Ken mentioned in a recent post, they removed the train there in Ontario, so now you need to buy a car...
If you've ever taken the Greyhound, sardined in in one seat, where you can't even sleep because they make you get off the bus in the middle of the night to clean it... and hopefully your stuff wasn't stolen if you left it on the above rack...
To get to Gainesville Fl from here by air, I first have to figure out how to get out to the airport, then take a plane that lands in Jacksonville, I have to take a 50 dollar cab to get to greyhound... and then a bus to Gainesville. Or I guess I could pay for multiple plane flights and then a cab from the airport in Gainesville.
Trains, per person, probably get over 1000 miles per gallon of fuel. And of course if you wanted to move things that are heavy, this is super efficient. In Europe a train takes you to the center of each town, and they are on time.
Air travel makes sense in certain circumstances, but where I'm sitting at the moment, there are trains that go to downtown close by, and it used to be I could hop one and then take a train from downtown Chicago to florida and get off in town in Gainesville Florida on foot. Not any more. And this is all done deliberately is my point.
I agree, Tomm. Cars are far more capitalistic. It is an individual's private property, where a train is a collective form of transport. I wish I didn't have to own a car, but unfortunately, I have to in order to do my job of making cheese.
I LOVE trains and train rides. When I was growing up we took trains everywhere. They are not designed for speed, so if you want to get somewhere fast you'll have to explore other options. However, I'm not usually in things for speed - I like to move at a slower pace and see the land outside the windows. Part of the reason the passenger trains don't operate anymore is because when Amtrak came along they changed the route lines and for some weird and strange reason they only ran east and west, no north and south routes. When we were going to travel to Las Vegas a few years ago, we had to drive to Denver in order to hook up with Amtrak because there were no north/south rails. It makes no sense at all. Last fall, if my DH and I could have used Amtrak or any passenger train to get from here to Boca Raton, FL to leave on the cruise ship for the Bahamas to our daughter's wedding, we'd have gladly done that rather than drive all the way. I don't fly, so we had two choices. We also tried to see about Greyhound bus schedules, but it just wouldn't have worked for us, time-wise.
So, even today, given a choice I'd take a train. But as Sylvia said, take yer own food! Don't wanna eat their phood. ; ->
Tomm, when you wrote : "Also they put all the greyhound stations in ghettos usually, Orlando, MIami, Gainesville, ... surely you didn't mean to insinuate that such ethno-centric neighbourhoods are in any repugnant?! Especially ; to be avoided by people who'd be targeted for mugging / murdering simply because their skin color caused them to be seen as "different"? Surely you know by now, in Mr Obama's "post-racial society", that "diversity is our strength"?
You do know there's an app. for that? - it warns of areas to avoid based on crime rates - which, by sheer coincidence - co-relate with the degree of melatonin in those same populations. Just another factoid supporting my contention that the Campaign for REAL MILK is phenomenon originating in white people awakening to our own needs, re-jecting the Yoke of Edom
Let's be positive about all this = Your mission = should you choose to accept it = is to go into those enclaves and "teach teach teach" about the joys of multi-cultural-ism. Just make sure you have a handgun with you. I recommend the Glock 17
I think you meant melanin.
Gordon, I do think you have the skills to write some great comic screenplays, if ever you want to go that route. I made a comedy movie, 1hr 45min, about serious subjects, it was surprisingly easy to make that dvd today. Keep it in mind.
I actually see nothing wrong with past comments of yours in terms of being interested in white people's history etc., certainly other groups are interested in their histories, and they don't get accused of being racist if they form self support groups.
As far as your melatonin ideas here though, I have to say that the white people out in the country where I live in north Florida, remind me sooo much of black ghetto people in Chicago. Sadly, most people are a product of their environment and never overcome it. Let me take a wild guess, as it looks like you are involved with a religion that uses bibles, my wild guess is your parents were also involved with a religion that is based on bibles? Did I "guess" right?
Btw black people used to be slaves, and one day they were let free, with no skills, no cash... to seek their fortune... what would you expect to happen? A disaster. How'd you like to be born into that?
My white relatives drive around with bumper stickers, "support of troops", some work for defense contractors... what's worse, a black guy plunging a knife into your back for your wallet, or a white guy designing the lastest cluster bomb to be used on dark skinned children somewhere? You tell me, I don't want to be around either type.
More evidence on the superiority of organic farming as it concerns yields. Out of Bihar, India:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2013/feb/16/india-rice-farm...
Clearly the FDA is aware of the following double standard? The health of our nation is indeed in the hands of a depraved lot.
http://healthychild.org/blog/comments/us_vs_uk_mac_n_cheese_smackdown/
“Many American food manufacturers now create two versions of their product, one for the US and a “cleaner” version for the moms, dads and kids in the 27 countries in Europe, Australia, Japan, New Zealand and the U.K.”
U.S. Version of Kraft Mac & Cheese:
Enriched Macaroni Product (Wheat Flour, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate [Iron], Thiamin Mononitrate [Vitamin B1], Riboflavin [Vitamin B2], Folic Acid), Cheese Sauce Mix (Whey, Modified Food Starch, Whey Protein Concentrate, Cheddar Cheese [Milk, Cheese Culture, Salt, Enzymes], Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Contains Less Than 2% of Parmesan Cheese [Part-Skim Milk, Cheese Culture, Salt, Enzymes, Dried Buttermilk, Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Blue Cheese [Milk, Cheese Culture, Salt, Enzymes], Sodium Phosphate, Medium Chain Triglycerides, Cream, Citric Acid, Lactic Acid, Enzymes, Yellow 5, Yellow 6).
U.K. Version of Kraft Mac & Cheese:
Macaroni (Durum Wheat Semolina), Cheese (10%), Whey Powder (from milk), Lactose, Salt, Emulsifying Salts (E339, E341), Colours (Paprika Extract, Beta-Carotene)
Ken
ken,
Wow, I knew there were differences, didn't know it was to that extent. Something to share with others, thanks.
Actually, the US version isn't as bad as I thought it was. It's bad, yes, but not as bad as I originally thought. Medium chain triglycerides are found in coconut oil (good stuff) so that leaves the bad guys to be found in the whey protein, modified food starch, sodium phosphate, sodium tripolyphosphate and the fake colors. The UK version uses paprika and beta-carotene for their colorings - so why can't the US do that? I wonder what E339 and E341 are?
Better yet, don't wonder, just avoid the whole mess by not using this junk on either side of the pond.
Avoiding the whole mess would be best! When something says "acceptable daily intake" it must be bad.
http://www.food-info.net/uk/e/e339.htm
http://www.food-info.net/uk/e/e341.htm
Pages