With Straight Face, MN Prosecutor Argues Any Unregulated Food a “Controlled Substance”; Settlement of Maine Food Sovereignty Case?
An unlicensed organization like a food club is not only distributing “contraband,” but a “controlled substance,” in the view of a Minnesota prosecutor fighting to prevent dismissal of three misdemeanor food allegations against farmer Alvin Schlangen. In other words, if licenses aren't purchased and regulators involved, food is no longer just food, it is in the same realm as oxycontin or morphine.
Schlangen’s lawyer, Nathan Hansen, had petitioned a court in Stearns County to dismiss three of six misdemeanor counts against Schlangen because they are very similar to the three counts a Minneapolis jury acquitted him of last September--relating to illegal sale of raw milk and selling food without a retail license. Hansen labeled the Stearns County campaign against Schlangen “serialized prosecution.” As evidence of the state’s intent to charge Schlangen repeatedly for the same alleged crimes, he included a memo from the Minnesota Department of Agriculture about Schangen that listed possible charges against the farmer and stated the “violations…are chargeable as misdemeanor crimes in Stearns, Hennepin [where Schlangen was acquitted], and Ramsey counties of the state of Minnesota.” Hansen used as legal precedent a case in which an individual charged with several acts of reckless driving had multiple cases thrown out because they were part of the same overall incident.
In building on an allusion he made in a court hearing early last month that raw milk was “a controlled substance,” Stearns County prosecutor, William MacPhail, has expanded his argument, applying it to all unregulated food. He argues in a brief in opposition that the best way to examine Schlangen’s request is to compare it to “crimes involving sex, controlled substances and thefts.” MacPhail’s technical argument is that double jeopardy of the sort prohibited by the U.S. and Minnesota Constitutions applies only when a single episode of the same crime is involved. When separate incidents occur at different times and at different places, legal precedent doesn’t protect the defendant.
But repeatedly, the prosecutor makes a comparison between food and drugs, pornography, and theft. “In drug cases (and situations involving similar contraband as here) generally the possession of two controlled substances at the same time and place is treated as a single incident,” he states at one point.
He says later that he “has found no cases in which separate controlled substance sales, even if separated by only a short period of time and place, have been held to be part of the same behavioral incident.”
And then, “The case now before this Court has much more in common with the controlled substance, pornography, and theft cases than the cases dealing with reckless driving.”
Finally, MacPhail accuses Schlangen of seeking financial riches from his food club. “The defendant had as his sole motive the desire to sell as much contraband food as possible…in order to enrich his coffers.” As evidence, he points to evidence that Schlangen paid $3 a gallon to his farmer-supplier and charged food club members $6 a gallon. MacPhail, of course, ignores the various expenses Schlangen incurred in obtaining, packaging, and delivering product—so much so that he was on the verge of insolvency prior to his trial last fall.
What’s going on here is clearly a revving up of the food police’s fear mongering and character assassination in anticipation of a new Alvin Schlangen trial. It’s kind of like the Americans traveling in Europe asking directions—when the locals don’t understand what’s being said, the Americans simply ask their questions in a louder and louder voice. Will a jury be any more receptive to the prosecutor’s efforts to turn up the loudspeakers, and start thinking about food as a “controlled substance”? Doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless he thinks he can intimidate Schlangen into doing a plea bargain. Thus far, Schlangen has had ice running through his veins when dealing with prosecutors. I suspect the coolness will prevail, and we’ll see yet another jury trial of the Minnesota farmer.
**
Might Maine’s prosecution of farmer Dan Brown, as part of an effort to invalidate Food Sovereignty ordinances passed by eight towns in the state, be settled without a trial? There have been reports over the last few weeks of settlement discussions involving the state’s attorney general and Brown, who milks one cow. A Maine paper that covers several of the towns with such ordinances reports that Brown thought he was close to a settlement of the case—via installation of a rubber mat over his wooden floor milking area and painting his walls white-- when the state (surprise!) changed the terms.
According to the paper, “Instead of painting the walls and installing a rubber mat on his wooden milking platform, as Brown said he was told in person, the [followup] letter required a cement platform, on cement blocks, cemented to the floor. The letter also stated Brown must assign lot numbers to milk and milk product containers to track which cow the milk came from. ‘We only had one cow at that time,’ Brown said. ‘It’s no one thing that’s insurmountable,’ Brown said. ‘It’s all these things [they] are asking me to do.’” Drip, drip, drip.
**
Interesting publications and postings around:
-Vermont farmer Sharon Zechinnelli, who comments on this blog, has a novel out about food rights, First They Came for the Cows: An Activist’s Story. It’s a fictionalized account about what happens to a farmer after the National Animal Identification (NAIS) program was launched a few years back. The program ostensibly disappeared, only to be resurrected. The book has gotten great reviews at Amazon.
-More on the growing popularity of raw milk--the Carolina Journal had an intriguing article about how residents of North Carolina are seeking out raw milk from Pennsylvania and South Carolina.
-There’s a good rundown of pending state legislative initiatives affecting raw milk around the country, at Food Safety News. Most of the initiatives involve expanding availability of raw milk.
-I have an article in Food Safety News about the sharp decline in foodborne illnesses. It’s good news, though, so the U.S. Centers for Disease Control chose to bury the information within a report. Note the comments of denial follwoing the article—these public health people definitely see half-empty glasses everywhere they look.
This site's mission is to provide news and analysis about food rights and raw milk. Increasingly, our access to privately available food is under attack by government and industry forces that seek to impose their choices on us. The Complete Patient seeks to provide up-to-date information and encourage the development of community to maintain traditional food acquisition options.
"An unlicensed organization like a food club is not only distributing “contraband,” but a “controlled substance,”
Are there any other types of private "clubs" that aren't required licensing, etc? What a moronic statement, inferring that food is a "controlled substance" or related to porn, or thefts. Geesh!
" seeking financial riches from his food club. "
LMAO, is this guy for real? That poor farmer will work himself to death before it ever makes him "rich".
"fear mongering and character assassination" is used when you have nothing else and are on the loosing end. Educate the public, and keep repeating that education, keep it short, to the point and factual.
As for, farmer Dan Brown, I'd plaster all letters on a web page along with short, to the point facts. The public will share that knowledge. Inform the public, most don't appear to have a clue, and those who don't care, will when it affects them personally.
As the corporate state escalates this signalling of its totalitarian intent and goal, citizens will have to escalate their consciousness that this system has ZERO legitimacy to regulate naturally local/regional food markets, or to impose industrial food via its corporate welfare planned economy. Citizens must realize this, and then become educators of it.
Some reading for you, Russ.
http://www.pssp.org/bbs/data/document/1/Losurdo___Critique_of_Totalitari...(2004).pdf
Not sure why that link didn't work. Let's try this again... (delete the <> if you have to)
<http://www.pssp.org/bbs/data/document/1/Losurdo___Critique_of_Totalitari...(2004).pdf>
don't hold yr breath, my man. About 2 decades ago - the first time I went down in a 'carotid hold', with 3 Mounties riding me to the ground winding up with my face in the dirt, for standing in a public park criticizing the govt. on tax policy - is when it dawned on me that the country in which I'd grown up ( for which my parents had gone to war) had degenerated to red fascism, while we baby-boomers were entranced in the phantasy of "Endless Summer"
later, on the frontlines of the ( so-called) Pro-Life movement, we kept waiting for the pastors of the brand-name Xian churches, to come along side us, so as to reach the conscience of the nation. That issue is as crucial as it gets = calculated genocide of the next generation of white people, by state diktat. If we couldn't reach the pew-warmers to "educate" them how anti-christs were at the very door, then forget about reaching Ham-merica while there's still the 'image of food', on the supermarket shelves .... morbidly obese idiots prefer the lie while pillory-ing the Truth-tellers
Sadly, this facet of cloaking charges in what sounds like newer charges is one of the many and flawed characteristics of the overweening arrogance of our current legal shenanigan system. Nowhere but in the legal system and the medical system is it more obvious that nothing is what it seems. It's like falling down Alice's rabbit hole. All nonsense on stilts. I'm surprised they didn't have to create a couple of committees to pore over the paperwork to build up even more *alleged/new* charges.
I am getting more and more calls from raw milk producers that really have their game on. Each reports that they have a written food safety plan and follow their own protocols. Many report that they do regular testing. That is why these producers will not be in the news anytime soon. Their leap to RAWMI LISTING status is not far...we are working to get more producers LISTED all the time.
Two of OPDC's neighbor dairies have just closed. Toste Dairy located 2 miles north of OPDC operated for 55 years and was considered one of Fresno's best award winning dairies....all 3000 cows gone to Cargil and ground beef. Jim Boss Dairy, located four miles north of OPDC has just been put up to auction....they were Fresno's most award winning dairy for many years. 2000 Cows being auctioned in 10 days.
Both of these farmers say....we are not stupid...dairying loses money and we can not do anything to change that fact. Plant almonds or walnuts....
Why?? how tragic. Dollar voting of consumers dollars and the false advertisement of GOT MILK? have come home to roost. Pasteurized milk is the most allergenic food in America. Consumers are no fools and after a big vote with the dollars...the election results are in. Pasteurized milk is done. So is the farmer that produced it. Cheeses and yogurts will survive....they are cultured and digestible even when pasteurized.
It will be interesting when none of the total gallons of milk produced in CA by CAFOS is made into pasteurized fluid milk....?? The massive checks that OPDC writes to the Milk Pool will have no place to go....perhaps the Milk Pool will send them back to OPDC. OPDC will be the only fluid producer in CA??
I need to take a breath now....breathe...breathe.
Last week the CDFA milk pool demanded and got $275,000 dollars from OPDC or else they refused to issue our biannual Milk Handlers License and shut us down. Not for pathogens....but because we refused to send our consumers dollars to the CAFO down the street under the archaic 45 year old communist payment system that robs organic raw milk money and gives it to dead milk CAFOS!!!!! It is a 5% tax paid every month to support low value dairy products.
Breathe...
I am working on getting this law changed. But...all the legislature is paid off by GOT MILK? and love their welfare check from OPDC. Why stop that!!!!????
Breathe....remember MLK....and Ghandi.
David, in the Food Safety News article you wrote for Bill Marler, you didn’t mention the increase in raw milk products outbreaks for the two years of 2009 and 2010. Was that an oversight?
Mary,
Isn't it interesting that the CDC played up an uptick in illnesses from raw milk, but nearly ignored a sharp decline in overall foodborne illnesses. Actually, Food Safety News had an article about the CDC report a couple days before mine was published, and played up the raw milk thing...so no need to beat a dead horse, I figured.
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/01/government-reports-foodborne-illne...
Funny, someone else asked me if I'd have mentioned raw milk if the CDC had noted a decline in raw milk illnesses. My response was that I'd never have that opportunity, since the CDC would never, ever, acknowledge a decline in illnesses from raw milk. (The reality is that over the ten years from 2000-2010, raw milk illnesses have varied sharply from year to year, with no clear trend; I made that point at the Harvard Law School debate on raw milk, complete with graphic.)
All this stuff about CDC's hidden agendas is especially noteworthy since the CDC is supposed to be a scientific, and non-political, agency. Sad.
But Mary - - isn't that YOUR job? Don't fall on your sword. Write your own article and put out the bad word rather than complaining about something someone else didn't do.
If someone wants the facts they can find them, or there are people like you who are more than willing to help. I just hope people are aware of the fact that the CDC and all gubment agencies are not to be trusted. I convert people to raw milk every day. We each have our side of the street to work.
People need to understand that no system agency is "scientific" or "non-political", but predominantly corporatist.
It's great that you convert people to raw milk. I've been working on it. Perhaps you'd like to read these draft notes for a raw milk presentation.
http://attempter.wordpress.com/2012/11/06/draft-notes-for-a-raw-milk-pre...
Anyone who wants to use any of that, be my guest. A friend of mine's planning to give such a presentation in March.
@ Russ: Thanks for the link to the presentation information. Very interesting!
I only WISH I had time for formal presentations, but I don't. I talk to clients every day and they talk to relatives and so on. I can't tell you how many people have contacted me saying they want to start to drink raw milk and they want their children to experience the flavor of real milk. The problem around here is getting it. And yes, people are afraid to milk their cows and either sell the milk or give it away, not because it's "dangerous" but because of fear of reprisal. Now if that's not a crying shame, I don't know what is. Gotta hand it to grubworms like marler and his ilk - they certainly do scare the living daylights out of people. So when I talk to people about raw milk, I ask them how they think I look (health wise, age wise, etc). When I tell them my age they are surprised, and when I tell them that I"ve basically been drinking raw milk my whole life, save a few years when I lived elsewhere and had no access, they are really surprised. They ask "have you ever gotten sick because we heard it can make you deathly ill". That's when I ask how much research they've done. Almost 99% of the time I hear the phrase about how the CDC and the fdUH are warning people off it. So, I do my best to set them straight, I dole out a few suggestions for web sites they can visit (for both pro and con slants - I don't provide them with statistics because those are BOGUS) and some reading material, which they are always more than happy to receive. I would have to say that at least 75 to 85% of these people contact me with further questions and interest.
It almost never fails. I direct some to goat milk, some to cow milk. Ultimately the decision is theirs, of course.
"99% of the time I hear the phrase about how the CDC and the fdUH are warning people off it. "
When people start spewing that garbage, I ask them what they eat on a regular basis. What products are they using. The majority of the time they are eating mass produced processed phoods. I ask them what are the ingredients. They always neglect to state the chemicals added to the dead food. I ask them to look up those chemicals, because most haven't a clue what the chemicals are. They will state that it is only a tiny bit of chemicals. I respond with how long have they been consuming those chemicals, etc etc.
We all know the govt won't allow anything that was not good for us. NOT.
I'd trust Mark long before I'd trust the govt.
@ Sylvia: The majority of people I talk to are young parents, and they usually say they don't read labels because they don't understand them. I try to hold my temper at that point and ask them if they are even the least bit curious about some of those terms they "don't understand". Then I tell them they could surely go home and use their computer to look up these ingredient terms and find out what some of the things are which are being added to these foods - foods with indefinite shelf lives. I mean seriously, aren't they the least bit curious as to why some of these boxed foods NEVER go bad? Apparently they don't give it much thought until someone, like me, brings it up.
One of the ladies who attends our church is a State Rep and she was instrumental in helping with the raw milk legislation in past years. She and I worked together for the raw goat milk legislation, too, as well as cow milk (although we failed with the cream, but you can't have everything). We have both commented to each other recently about how many of the church members are beginning to ask questions about local foods, raw foods and milks, fermented foods, starting a garden with organic seeds - - there are a lot of questions out there, and seeing as how some of our congregation are older folks, they either don't want to or don't have the access to learning to use a computer, so we try to take the time to help them get their questions answered, or direct them to people who can.
We had a big group discussion last week about bigPHrma drugs. We'll see where that lands. It's amazing the stuff people will believe. They are still under the illusion that if it's on tv it must be the truth because of truth in advertising. Ha. We've been having lots of fun with that. It's absolutely appalling how many people believe dr oz has their best interests at heart.
Thanks for the description of who you talk to and what you say. Where it comes to milk, GMOs, etc., I usually start by saying something like "~Who~ told you that? The corporations and their government? Do you always believe what the corporate system/government tells you?" Now of course the real answer to that is usually Yes, but having the question put to them that way often makes them hesitate, and even stop and think. Then I start telling the facts. Unfortunately, although we have this site for real milk, and GM Watch for GMOs, it's hard to find a good site for Food Freedom in general. Most temporize with corporatism. Civil Eats, supposedly in favor of Community Food, also supports the Food Control Act. That's a typical schizophrenia. We need a real anti-corporate Food Freedom web forum, and not just a blog or site.
Russ, haven't you heard of Family Farm Defenders?
http://familyfarmers.org/
FFD does not advocate "food freedom" (which is imbued with all sorts of nationalist, individualist, and free-market connotations) but rather, FOOD SOVEREIGNTY (which is imbued with internationalist, communitarian, and democratic connotations)
I've heard of them, but don't know them well yet. (There's a long list of acquaintences to make.) Thanks for recommending them.
"Food Freedom" (like "Food Sovereignty" itself, in America), is a not-yet-determined term, worthy of being claimed.
I disagree, Russ. Food Soveriegnty is already well defined, and has been in common use amongst indigenous rights activists for almost 2 decades now. Perhaps Americans are not as familiar with its meaning as they should be, but there's plenty of scholarly work on the subject for those who care to do the research, as well as ample practical implementation by organizations such as via Campesina and Family Farm Defenders.
You may be right about the nondescript meaning of "Food Freedom", but the way I have generally seen it used within raw milk circles is to denote a hyper-individualistic free-market attitude that dovetails with a whole host of right-wing & proprietarian ideologies.
As I'm sure you would agree, our choice of words is very important. There is a lot of talk about "rights" in the raw milk movement. But rights no more "come from God" than they do from the state, or from "natural law" for that matter. All notions of rights are merely outgrowths of the material conditions of production and the social structures & class relations which those technological forms engender. (Unlesse, perhaps, you would dispute the materialist method? Someone like John Moody certainly does... he believes that rights come from God.)
Given this materialist understanding of where rights come from, it is completely understandable why privileged, white, middle-class Americans would promote this kind of ideological notion of "Food Freedom." On the other hand, those who actually practice subsistance agriculture have a very different notion. Thus, Food Sovereignty.
Bill, if rights don't come from God, why is it wrong for someone to steal from you? Or beat you up? Or commit any "crime" against anyone else?
Oh wait, in a truly materialist worldview, "might makes right." Or, to put it another way, "whatever is is right." Thus, you cut your own feet out from under you with your constant judgmentalness towards other peoples positions/views.
Materialists can express preferences, but not morality nor meaning. If there is no final judgement, then there is no current meaning. You should spend some time in basic philosophy texts. Or just watch the debate where even Christopher Hitchens is forced to concede if the materialist worldview is true, there is no right or wrong or meaning. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/collision-christopher-hitchens-vs-douglas...
John, in the real world (that is, the material world, not the imaginary world of religious fundamentalists) this American "Constitutional Republic" which you extol was founded on slavery, genocide, and the theft of land from the Native Americans. And it was often done in the name of God.
So, Firstly, can we begin by agreeing that a belief in God does not in any way assure moral conduct? Many horrific things have been done in the name of God, and yet the supposed piety of those committing the crimes only seems to embolden them more.
Secondly, that you present a debate in which Christopher Hitchens is the representative of the materialist position shows how poorly you understand materialism, John. Hitchens is a disgusting proto-Stalinist turned neoconservative, who is one of the last people I would choose to represent a materialist position in a debate.
In fact, there is ample scientific evidence of the evolutionary and materialist basis for ethics.
For a perspective that is specific to the socialist tradition, I would direct you to Peter Kropotkin's book "Mutual Aid: A Factor in Evolution." Kropotkin was an evolutionary biologist, born into the Russian Nobility. He denounced his privileged upbringing to side with the common people, and champion the cause of Anarchist Communism. He was also among the first to describe the Bolshevik government as "The New Tsars", and his funeral was the last public gathering of Anarchists allowed in Russia.
In "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution" Kropotkin rebuts the narratives of (so-called) "Social Darwinism" which were popular amongst the Western bourgeoisie of his time (and still are today, ironically enough). Kropotkin uses innumerable examples to show how it is not competition which drives the evolutionary process, but rather, cooperation. Species which have the most social, have the most developped rituals of solidarity, and are the most adept at cooperation, are also the species which tend to enjoy the most prosperity.
Of course, Kropotkin is by no means the only materialist who offers a scientific explanation for ethics and social codes of conduct. But I think his is the most compelling. There are plenty of bourgeois materialists who have offered similair sorts of explanations, for anyone who cares to do the research. It would only take a short google search.
Talking about the popularity of "Social Darwinism" amongst the Western Bourgeoisie reminded me that Ron Paul is a fan of Ayn Rand.
Ayn Rand, as I'd hope you are aware, John, was an athiest and cold-hearted amoral capitalist pig. Apparently, she is also one of Ron Paul's inspirations.
@ Russ: Yes, a food freedom forum is a good idea.
I usually direct people to certain sites and at the top of the conversation I say "I don't agree with their stances on supporting the gubment controls" or something to that effect. So I ask them only to read what pertains to nutrition, and to skip the "political" crap. Even Weston A. Price and Cornucopia and some of my other favorites are in support of legislated/regulated/castrated farming bills. It's obscene to think of these informed people going down a road of total misinformation, passing it on, and playing with gubment rulings because they feel they must in order to operate at all. Why don't they just lift up their skirts while they dance to WADC's tune? Honestly, they talk out both sides of their faces when they kiss butt like that. Organic Consumers Association cowtows to the global warming nonsense - they all have a certain agenda, it seems. We all believe in different things, that's true, but where food is concerned there should be no line of demarcation - whether it's small gardens or huge operations.
Yes, lots of people and groups are focused too much on legislation, petitions, etc. Some focus on the Farm Bill I can understand, because it's not like if a new Farm Bill's not passed then Big Ag subsidies would end. They'd just continue at the existing level. So for the time being it's a fait accompli, so it ~may~ be worth putting ~some~ effort into trying to improve it. But I'd still tell anyone and everyone that the primary effort has to be building a grassroots Community Food movement dedicated to building this sector (and overthrowing the industrial food sector) as the basis for rebuilding our local/regional economies and polities. From this point of view, the main goal vis alien hierarchies (government and corporate) is to get them off of us, reject, renounce, and resist them.
As for global warming, I don't understand people who are bigoted against such a good weapon. Since the #1 emitter of greenhouse gases is industrial ag, it should be a no-brainer that real farmers and anyone who supports them would make this a key point of our publicity: If you're worried about climate change, then that's yet another reason we need to abolish industrial ag.
I can well understand why Big Ag and its flunkeys deny global warming. Why anyone who otherwise opposes Big Ag would support them on this is a mystery to me.
(Needless to say, we reject all top-down system "solutions" like cap-and-trade, which is merely a scam meant to help Wall Street blow up a carbon bubble, ladle out tons of other corporate welfare, and not actually mitigate emissions at all.)
I agree with you about cap-and-trade, Russ. It is a neoliberal solution to climate change, which will only enhace the wealth of the 1%.
What is upsetting, though, Russ, is that most of the proprietarians & fundamentalists who dominate the raw milk movement deny climate change.
You have to seriously ask yourself why the raw milk movement is such a magnet for these reactionary elements of American society. I have spent a lot of time thinking about it, and researching the question, and the best explanation I can come up with so far is that it is basically a petit bourgeois cause.
Perhaps you can come up with a better explanation for why this movement attracts reactionaries. I'd be interested.
@ Russ: Ah, well, you and I are certainly on different sides of the "climate change/global warming" issue if I'm reading your comment right. That will have to remain a separate issue.
I'm not opposed to working with gubment policies when they are for the overall good of everyone, but when they have an agenda towards corporate business or widdling away our freedoms, I'm outta there. This newest farm bill is not in the best interests of the small farmer, or the people in general. But that's just my opinion and I'm sure others feel all those regulations are "for our own good".
Well, my point was that Big Ag and I are on different sides of it. Those are the two possible sides. (Those who pay lip service to it but want top-down "solutions" are also on the corporate side.)
The Farm Bill certainly is against the small farmer. Here's one way to look at the dual legislative/bureaucratic assault. Industrial ag and community food are two completely different sectors. The former is artificially generated by the corporate state. It's a planned economy, 100% dependent on corporate welfare and forcibly generated supply-driven markets. The latter is a resurgence of natural ways of producing food. It's part of rebuilding a natural economy, demand-driven from the bottom up, the work only of food workers and eaters.
So the Farm Bill is the main direct corporate welfare vehicle (corporate food growers are economically unviable than old-time sharecroppers; today they're partially subsidized by the government instead of completely indentured to the furnishing merchant; but this is really corporate welfare for commodity buyers; the #1 goal of US farm policy is to artificially depress prices for commodity buyers, along with generating forced markets for input suppliers like Monsanto).
Meanwhile, the Food Control Act is intended to be the main repression vehicle against the rising challenger, community food.
That's why I think the main point of contact for us will have to be resistance to the food police, rather than trying to modify the Farm Bill. The food police regime will have to serve as the main education vehicle to convince farmers that the corporate system is the enemy, and that freedom and prosperity lie beyond the struggle to break free of this system.
Meanwhile the affirmative lesson for producers still struggling as customers of and suppliers to the industrial system is that they need to make the switch to direct retail, local ag (including building a local/regional input and processing infrastructure). All the time we read more and more testimonials from farmers who made this switch and immediately found their business and their whole quality of life greatly improved.
“Roy W. Spencer received his Ph.D. in meteorology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1981. Before becoming a Principal Research Scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville in 2001, he was a Senior Scientist for Climate Studies at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center, where he and Dr. John Christy received NASA’s Exceptional Scientific Achievement Medal for their global temperature monitoring work with satellites.”
“Your local TV meteorologist is probably a closet ’skeptic’ regarding mankind’s influence on climate… Climate change — it happens, with or without our help.”
http://www.drroyspencer.com/global-warming-natural-or-manmade/
Ken
@ Ken: "Climate Change - it happens with or without our help". Indeed. Always has.
See, I told you Russ. Thanks for proving my point Ken and D Smith.
Ken, there is little doubt that the climate change we are experiencing is human induced, as current levels of numerous greenhouse gases are well above levels they have been in many millions of years.
As for this Spencer character, a little research on his corporate connections is in order. Among other things, he has connections to ExxonMobile and to the Heartland Institute, a right-wing corporately funded think tank.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Roy_W._Spencer
As usual, the proprietarian fundamentalists demonstrate the utterly petit bourgeois character of the raw milk movement. Like I said, Russ, perhaps you can come up with better explanation for why this movement is such a magnet for reactionaries. I have not found a better explanation yet.
Bill, you show both the shallowness of your views and character when your only rationale for why someone might disagree with the great Billtocracy is because they must be some brainwashed-ism and therefore incapable of analysis and reason and research, unlike your so well enlightened self.
As Sylvia put it a while ago in words similar to this, "how obnoxious."
Actually, you just showed how little you understand about my views, John.
I'm not saying our disagreement is because they are brainwashed. Quite the contrary. The material interests of the petit bourgeoisie lead them to very different sorts of ideological belief systems. It is determined by the class relationship to capital and the means of production.
That is why, for example, the mantra of "Food Freedom" is so prevelant in the American raw milk movement (because of this movement's petit bourgeois characteristics) while genuine subsistence farmers in other parts of the world would scoff at such an individualistic notion. As I pointed out to Russ, there are material reasons why those peasant movements adopted the mantra of Food Sovereignty.
Bill
The facts have been misrepresented.
There are a many reputable scientists who question this highly charged political agenda, which suggest that human activity is responsible for global warming.
You know as well as I do that global warming is a natural cyclical event that has occurred numerous times in the past absent human involvement.
Consider this statement by the 1998 Nobel Prize for Physics laureate Robert Laughlin “climate change is something that the Earth routinely does on its own without asking anyone’s permission… the geologic record suggests that climate ought not to concern us too much when we are gazing into the energy future, not because it’s unimportant, but because it’s beyond our power to control.”
In a speech to the Global Warming Policy Foundation entitled, “The Climate Change Doctrine is Part of Environmentalism, Not of Science” the President of the Czech Republic, Vaclav Klaus states, “It seems to me that the widespread acceptance of the global warming dogma has become one of the main, most costly and most undemocratic public policy mistakes in generations. The previous one was communism... What belongs here is our insisting upon the undisputable fact that there are respectable but highly conflicting scientific hypotheses concerning this subject… I have been trying to follow the published theories for a couple of years and am strongly on the side of those who say that carbon dioxide is a minor player. It is not the primary cause of global warming and therefore humanity is not to blame”.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/20/president-vaclav-havel-climate-con...
This statement by Vaclav Klaus although not from the above speech is relevant the ongoing political and social discussions that frequently occur on this blog, “In the past 150 years the socialists have been very effectively destroying human freedom under humane and compassionate slogans, such as caring for man, ensuring social equality, and fostering social welfare.”
Ken
"It is not the primary cause of global warming and therefore humanity is not to blame."
Just as with raw milk where the establishment tells you it's dangerous, but if you check things out in the real world, go talk to people who drink it, you find the truth is the opposite of what the establishment promotes, and so it is with the situation with Mother Earth. As we speak, an area of pristine rainforest the size of England is being cut down EVERY YEAR. Whole species wiped off the face of the earth, every day. Yet the estab has people debating if humans are harming the earth.
The human decimation of the Creation is the ultimate no brainer, yet even people in this forum can't grasp such an obvious fact. Scary scary times.
here's but one short video, showing things that don't make "the news", this piece showing a bit about how Big Oil gets you your gasoline from the rainforest...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbs-PzFSROM
"The facts have been misrepresented."
WHAT facts, Ken? Perhaps we should examine the "facts" that led Americans into the last 12 years of imperialist war... war which has cost trillions of dollars and has caused a never-ending chain of financial crises since 2008, to fund a bloated military-industrial complex.
These wars are not fought for "Freedom", "Democracy", or to "stop terrorism." They are not fought to prevent the spread of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" (last time I checked, the United States has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, and we are the only nation in human history to use nukes against civilians)
These wars are fought over colonial control of a dwindling oil supply, and to enhance the profits of a handful of petrochemical and defense corporations.
Virtually all climate change denial "Science" is funded by a handful of petrochemical corporations and right-wing billionaires who profit from the petroleum industry and the military-industrial complex which it requires. This fact is well documented, by organizations such as http://www.sourcewatch.com/ (there is much more research out there, on the topic of corporate funding of climate-science denial, for those interested)
I'm afraid that your statements above demonstrate your alignment with the ruling class, and, once again, a petit bourgeois class consciousness. This should not come as a surprise on a raw milk movement website, given the overall petit bourgeois nature of this movement.
Sorry, wrong link in the above comment. Here is the correct link:
http://ftp.sourcewatch.org/index.php/SourceWatch
Bill
The issue is with the, “anthropogenic global warming hypothesis” not with global warming.
The twisted logic used to justify war or the recklessly abuse and mismanage of resources that corrupt ecosystems as seen in Tom’s link, I do not endorse.
Global warming is the least of our problems; more pressing is this ongoing war of attrition on our freedom to choose.
Ken
reckless not recklessly
How can there be such certainty when there is so much ambiguity with respect to the science of climate change?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23014-what-leaked-ipcc-report-real...
I fail to see how this article undermines the case for anthropogenic climate change. You are acting like Miguel, and jumping to extreme and far-reaching conclusions that are nowhere suggested in the evidence presented.
Mary, I wonder if you would do me the favor of reading this linked article, and then speculate for me on the cause of death of three members of the subject family "within a few days of one another."
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/For-40-Years-This-Russ...
Please consider, as you think about this amazing story, the complexity and uniqueness of micro- and macro-biological environments, and their relationship to health.
Dave
@ Dave: That was fascinating to read. I have absolutely no idea what would cause three of them to die like that. They're probably right about the pneumonia being a transmission from their new "friends". But if the other two had kidney problems wouldn't that have been an issue much sooner in their lives? My thinking is there's a clue in the story - about salt - as to why they had kidney issues, but why not the father or the other girl and why not at an earlier age and/or time? At first I was thinking malnutrition, but in that pristine area the minerals (other than sodium apparently) must have been plentiful, and although lacking in some things they had probably most of the vitamins they needed, considering they weren't exposed to much in the way of illnesses. I wish the geologists had written more about health issues encountered over the years. That might have given some big clues.
That is an amazing story. I'm leaning toward the cause of pneumonia as from malnutrition and secondly from new bacteria/viral exposure. Malnutrition opens you up to assaults that normally your body fights off. Chronic malnutrition can lead to renal failure as well as cardiac issues, etc. The body is great at adapting, if whatever is in imbalance isn't corrected, it takes a toll and can cause permanent damage or death.
This is a fascinating story.
It is amazing what people are willing to do and endure in order to escape their fear of persecution, suffering, pain and sorrow. Their fortitude is equally impressive and inspiring when they choose to humbly confront those same fears and are able to overcome them.
Ken
David, your article did a great job showing how the govt masks reports, even from their own results. Guess they have a "need" to fear monger.
Yes, they definitely don't want to lose an opportunity for fear mongering.
Nope, they want you to continue to eat their crappy food so that you can then take their crappy medicine. It's a win-win for the corporations. People don't understand what the good bacteria in your gut do until they're gone. I'm not just talking about the (so far) benign Lactobacilli, there are the Clostridia that when not causing pseudo-membranous colitis, tetanus, or gas gangrene, are busy keeping your colon working well.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/magazine/the-boy-with-a-thorn-in-his-j...
From Kturner's link: "But now some scientists think it is more about the balance of a bacterial community. "
Better late than never.
"And yet, if you look hard enough, evidence that diet and supplements can work does exist"
Wouldn't want the word on this to get out, may cause people to change their diet and pop supplements instead of buying RX.
I can't imagine giving a 3 yr old NSAIDS, but methotrexate? Geesh.. That poor child.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/opinion/health-cares-trick-coin.html
[quote from Sylvia's post]:
"From Kturner's link: "But now some scientists think it is more about the balance of a bacterial community. "
Better late than never.
[end quote]
Heh heh! Cute.
Don't know if any of you subscribe to the Yahoo Group: RawDairy@yahoogroups.com or not but here is a recent posting that is quite interesting:
Message
1
Milky Way Farm Important update regarding SC raw milk issue!þ
Fri Feb 1, 2013 12:36 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"CLRose" zularad
Crossposted from Milky Way Farm mailing list:
----------------------------------------------------------
Please take a moment to read the following statement from Milky Way Farms, and to thank President David Winkles for his decision to NOT oppose raw milk in SC:
Raw milk continues to be a safely regulated agricultural product in the state of South Carolina. Seventeen other states have regulations in place to keep raw milk pure and available to their citizens. We can be thankful for those regulations and to the progressive thought and research that has increased raw milk consumption.
In a recent meeting to discuss policy regarding raw milk, South Carolina Farm Bureau (SCFB) under the leadership of President David Winkles has made decisions that SCFB will continue their historic position of not opposing current SC Law that allows the sale of regulated raw milk for human consumption. Please send your thanks to David Winkles for this bold decision.
We hope there will always be reasonable discussion on the topic of raw milk, no matter what side of the issue one is on. As too often opinions are expressed strongly, let's keep the tone regarding raw milk positive and informative, so that we may all move forward together rather than let rhetoric hold us back. Support for raw milk and the South Carolina Farm Bureau will keep us united in both our support for South Carolina farms and foods that can keep our nation healthy.
President David Winkles contact information is:
dwinkles@scfb.com
803-936-4211
If the jury found Mr. Schlangen guilty of a crime but only acquitted him because no one got sick, then he could be tried again if someday the state is able to find one of his customers willing to testify against him.
If the state admits the food is unregulated what would that crime by?
Fascinating recount of this remote family discovered in Russia. I could not stop reading.
Two big mistakes were made. No fishing and they forgot to take their solar food grass converters with them... Cows, goats or sheep would have changed this story. They barely survived....but they failed to thrive. Nearly All primitive people's had a mammal enslaved, or fish in their diets.
Loved this story of love, survival, and ultimate sacrifice at the outer edges of modern humanity in a vacuum. What a test plot.
A compliment to Dave Milano,
I would love to meet you some time. I find your grasp of humanity truly and wholistically grounded. We need more human being like you on this planet. I can not stop pondering the story and the plight of the Russian family that starved but were free. Food for serious thought. Keep the enlightenment coming we all need it.
Today is Rosa Parks 100th Bday. Let's remember her real legacy of fighting against racism and social injustice, and not the white-washed stories used by opportunists and nationalists on the political right-wing.
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/4/on_rosa_parks_100th_birthday_recalling
"Here we have, in many ways, one of the most famous Americans of the 20th century, and yet treated just like a sort of children’s book hero," Theoharis says. "We diminish her legacy by making it about a single day, a single act, as opposed to the rich and lifelong history of resistance that was actually who Rosa Parks was."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeanne-theoharis/rosa-parks-100th-birthday...
8. Parks was far more radical than has been understood. She worked alongside the Black Power movement, particularly around issues such as reparations, black history, anti-police brutality, freedom for black political prisoners, independent black political power, and economic justice. She attended the Black Political Convention in Gary and the Black Power conference in Philadelphia. She journeyed to Lowndes County, Alabama to support the movement there, spoke at the Poor People's Campaign, helped organize support committees on behalf of black political prisoners such as the Wilmington 10 and Imari Obadele of the Republic of New Africa, and paid a visit of support to the Black Panther school in Oakland, CA.
9. Parks was an internationalist. She was an early opponent of the Vietnam War in the early 1960s, a member of The Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, and a supporter of the Winter Soldier hearings in Detroit and the Jeannette Rankin Brigade protest in D.C. In the 1980s, she protested apartheid and U.S. complicity, joining a picket outside the South African embassy and opposed U.S. policy in Central America. Eight days after 9/11, she joined other activists in a letter calling on the United States to work with the international community and no retaliation or war.
no hero of mine Rosa Parks ; Card Carrying member of the Communist Party of the USA ; buried in a state funeral with the level of pomp which was the hallmark of the Soviet era / Her apotheosis says everything we need to know about how the Republic was subverted so that the nation which was founded as a white Christian nation, has been utterly perverted. What Isaiah told ancient Israel = "Wrong is put in place of right ; right is put in place of wrong, and the one who calleth for Justice, maketh himself a prey" = explains perfectly what is going on, in the REAL MILK war.
As my old man used to say "Nothing is so useless it cannot at least be used as a bad example". The palaver dumped in to this forum by Mister Anderson, being case in point ; so -obviously, another tragic victim of the public fool system.
Thank you for confirming exactly what I have been saying about the raw milk movement, Gordon.
"Thank you for confirming exactly what I have been saying about the raw milk movement, Gordon."
That's right, Mr. Anderson. Ignore the intelligent food freedom rights supporters, and look to an attention-seeker like Mr. Watson as an example.
Thank you Joseph Stalin, for confirming exactly what people have been saying about the Communist movement.
I disagree with your analogy, Mama.
Virtually every socialist I have ever met roundly denounces Stalinism as counterrevolutionary and contrary to socialist objectives. You would be very hard-pressed to find a socialist who finds much to admire about Stalin.
On the other hand, the raw milk movement is a hotbed of climate-science-denial, evolution-denial, anti-immigrant sentiment, pro-police sentiment (i.e. the "Constitutional Sheriff" nonsense), pseudo-science, and just plain wacked out conspiracy theory (i.e. the Agenda 21 drivel). Yes, Watson is an outlier in his explicit embrace of racism. But still we hear off-the-cuff comments from Joel Salatin about immigrants. We see a failure to speak out about issues of racial inequality in agriculture. We see a systematic denial of the racist history of Ron Paul's newsletter, his (more current) xenophobic position on immigration, and his questionable credientials on genuine matters of civil liberties (i.e. his sponsership of a constitutional amendment to allow states to outlaw flag-burning).
As a point of comparison, we could look at the anti-war movement, which is an eclectic grouping of liberals, Greens, independent progressives, socialists & communists of various stripes, anarchists, and yes... libertarians. In my years of anti-war organizing, I never saw such a zealous embrace of self-serving pseudoscience, paranoid conspiracy theory, and just plain reality-denial as I have seen in the raw milk movement.
Perhaps you are right that people like Watson are just attention-seekers, but IMO there are far too many of these types in the raw milk movement to just write it off as an anomaly.
Bill, Do you find the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to be reliable?
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Apparently, each of the books, if taken literally, wouldn't consider the others to be reliable because they contradict each other.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html
non-sense. The Gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John are called "The Synoptic Gospels" because they report the same incidents, from different points of view. The do not contradict each other. They were penned by men, inspired by the Holy Spirit. God is not the author of confusion. Before you can make an intelligent comment about the Bible, you have to read it, and read it ALL
Which version, Gordon?
By your logic about the Bible, Gordon, I would say the same thing to you about socialism. Before you can make an intelligent comment about socialism, you have to read ALL of the major socialist works of the last 200 years. Paging through the Communist Manifesto does not mean you understand what socialism is really about.
Consider these quote by Mikhail Gorbachev, “Those who hope that we shall move away from the socialist path will be greatly disappointed. Every part of our program of perestroika … is fully based on the principle of more socialism and more democracy. ... I would like to be clearly understood ... we, the Soviet people, are for socialism. ... We want more socialism and, therefore, more democracy. ... More socialism means more democracy, openness and collectivism in everyday life. … We will proceed toward better socialism rather than away from it. We are saying this honestly, without trying to fool our own people or the world. Any hopes that we will begin to build a different, non-socialist society and go over to the other camp are unrealistic and futile. Those in the West who expect us to give up socialism will be disappointed. ... It’s my conviction that the human race has entered a stage where we are all dependent on each other. No other country or nation should be regarded in total separation from another, let alone pitted against another. That’s what our communist vocabulary calls internationalism and it means promoting universal human values.
“Promoting universal human values”?
Whose values and what is the basis for those universal human values?
What does a ruling socialist government intent to do if their promotion campaign fails to yield the desired objective?
Does he not realize that human values are relative to personal, cultural and philosophical convictions and that they are rooted in the soul of each individual and must be freely chosen in order to have any constructive value?
Perhaps the following statement by Gorbachev holds a clue and exposes the nature of his so called “honesty”, “Gentlemen, comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about Glasnost and Perestroika and democracy in the coming years. They are primarily for outward consumption. There will be no significant internal changes in the Soviet Union, other than for cosmetic purposes. Our purpose is to disarm the Americans and let them fall asleep.
I think we aught to consider one who understands those who are politically motivated in their attempt to mold the human psyche. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn states, “Or why should one refrain from burning hatred, whatever its basis--race, class, or ideology? Such hatred is in fact corroding many hearts today. Atheist teachers in the West are bringing up a younger generation in a spirit of hatred of their own society. Amid all the vituperation we forget that the defects of capitalism represent the basic flaws of human nature, allowed unlimited freedom together with the various human rights; we forget that under Communism (and Communism is breathing down the neck of all moderate forms of socialism, which are unstable) the identical flaws run riot in any person with the least degree of authority; while everyone else under that system does indeed attain 'equality'--the equality of destitute slaves. This eager fanning of the flames of hatred is becoming the mark of today's free world. Indeed, the broader the personal freedoms are, the higher the level of prosperity or even of abundance--the more vehement, paradoxically, does this blind hatred become. The contemporary developed West thus demonstrates by its own example that human salvation can be found neither in the profusion of material goods nor in merely making money.”
Ken
political movements succeed inasmuch as they allow that there are all sorts of ways and characters, to carry on the campaign, toward a common goal. Political movements live and die depending on "attention" so people who play the role I do, are essential for publicity. you're welcome to hang back there on the periphery, as long as you don't bad-mouth those of us who really have a better understanding of what this war is about, and what it takes to win.
On the stage of the theatre of politics, it takes big broad bombastic gestures and tone of voice to reach the seats at the very fringes of society.
Last week in the National Post, on page A2, was a photo of my Dad, at the front line of the Korean war, in 1953. He fought communism then ... now 6 decades on, so am I ... in my own neighbhourhood.
Well, there's no such thing as nominal "communism" anymore. So you must mean you're fighting corporate capitalism, which is the same thing as communism - centralized economic power.
Since people here are talking about food rights, freedom, sovereignty, what are the rights words, philosophy, etc., I thought I'd add a piece to the mix for consideration:
After I posted here about Big Oil wrecking the rainforest, ruining the Achuar people's food supply, Ken mentioned he does not endorse abuse and mismanaging of "resources". This is a commonly used term today, among libertarians and others. At the risk of simplifying things, the libertarian philosophy neatly divides the Universe into two catagories, humanity, and everything else is property aka resources. A bottlenose dolphin for example, with a brain larger than yours, is a "resource" for humans, to be made into burgers or whatever, if a human so decides. A two thousand year old Sequoia has no rights itself, but it's "owner", who "owns" the land it is on, has property rights to it. People like JohnM believe humans are supposed to "subdue" the Earth.
The libertarian philosophy, I submit is a form of the "honor among thieves" idea. Humans carve up and loot the Universe, but have rules of fair play among themselves, for how they allocate these "resources".
Then we have Bill here, in the athiest camp, saying the idea of rights is fictional. I respect athiests btw, they have usually given the fundamantal questions of life much more thought than the typical person involved in an establishment religion (most always whatever religion they grew up with).
So the fundamentally different idea I want to add to the mix here, for consideration, is the Native idea that the Earth is in fact a living being, and it does have rights. The Universe has a purpose, and there is accountability, even if in shorter time frames it isn't always obvious. There is the Native idea, "the law of balance", an idea found in many cultures and time periods, sometimes called "karma", or " as you sow so shall you reap", I've found this idea with Shinto Priests, and other places.
Put differently, it says, "When you hurt the Earth, you hurt yourself". It relates to posts Miguel made recently, about the "Gaia Hypothesis", about how the patterns of the macro also manifest at the micro, ... Natives say the seed of the whole Universe is within each of us, ... there is the ancient saying, "As above, so below". Miguel's video made a distinciton between "life" and "inanimate" things, but if you were to look at a rock say, and had really really good vision, you would see it's actually in motion, whirling energy moving in patterns... If it's dead matter, why is it moving? The Native explantion makes much more sense to me, it's moving because it's alive. "The Great Spirit" is the life that is in all things. Ie, the Creator creates out of the only thing it really has to create out of, itself.
So this Native idea says the Universe does have a purpose and there is accountability, otherwise how would that purpose be carried out? If you really could loot and pillage with impunity, this could only lead to disaster. So the idea here is that there are rights, and when you violate others, you become obligated to undo that violation. Reaping can take various forms. The Natives I know beleive, btw, that we all live many lives.
So how would you know when you are violating another? I believe most societies that held this Native philosophy did not try to establish formal laws, because the Universe is too complex. You know when you are violating another by sensing it. To give one example, a passage in a book I recommeded earlier, this Indian healer talks about how when he goes out to hunt, he doesn't chase after deer, he just heads out, and a deer will present itself shortly. The deer just stands there, in range. "He knows, and I know, it is for that purpose". So the deer contributes its body for the nourishment of these people. And thru the priciple of as you sow so shall you reap, it gets paid for doing this. So there's a right way to do things. (the Establishment, killing 75 million buffalo to kill off people's food supply, being an example of the wrong way.)
So people with this basic philosophy used streamlined, formal structures, but not formal laws. You had your own "property", if you like that word, but it was within narrow limits.
I agree with you, Tomm. I think the expression that a "Libertarian is an Anarchist who wants police protection from his slaves" is a pretty apt description. It explains, for example, why Joel Salatins loudly laments animal rights activists and "radical" enviromentalists in his public screeds attacking anything even remotely socialistic.
Which, speaking of granting rights to Gaia, mother earth, Bolivia is leading the way on this score. Its no coincidence that the current elected leader of Bolivia is both an indigenous person and a socialist -- Evo Morales.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/apr/10/bolivia-enshrines-natu...
Peer reviewed and published studies out of Spain really show fascinating data on breast milk and its Biometrics. More than 700 types of bacteria found in breast milk!!
Obese moms have less biodiversity in their breast milk than fit moms.
Breast milk bacterial biometrics are very much related to whether the baby was born c-section or vaginal at delivery. Sounds like the baby colonizes the breast and the cylce of baby-mother symbiosis is complete.
Much much more....even a statement that breast bacteria are directly related to childhood immunity and the ability to digest food. Nothing we did not already know...but know said by scientists.
I guess Dr. Beam was wrong when he testified under sworn oath in the CDFA lawsuit in 2007 that raw milk is sterile in the udder or breast. Breast milk has all sorts of bacteria in it and for good reason. Breast milk from vaginal delivery babies has fecal bacteria that colonizes the inside of the breast by design and not by mistake. The cow is not the filthy creature she has been accused of being. The location of the teats directly below the udder is intention and a critical part of evolution. Calves would die if they did not get the innoculum from the dirty teat. It appears that human babies get the same thing....if they are healthy at least.
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-01-human-breast-microbiome.html
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-01-breast-bacteria-microbes-infant.html
Good articles Mark
And this is why injecting antibiotics into a cow’s udder can be so catastrophic.
Ken
Isn't it always the truth...that the truth will set you free! I know your references to these issues in your own experiences during this past decade, and my empathy is always with the naturalist farmer! But this information also vindicates my own experiences with Kaiser NICU when my daughter was born over 30 years ago, a premie. I insisted on bringing in my own expressed breast milk (while they encouraged me not to "stress" and that they'd provide formula)...and I insisted that they not NUKE it to death when warming it up from frozen state! I was a thorn in their side! And I didn't know the "science" of it as in these two articles! I only "knew" how I wanted it done! Thank you Mark for this information...and if I took note of this, how could those far more IMPORTANT than I not notice? (I don't think Dave M. really expects Mary to respond...just to take note of seminal information.)
hold on a minute : you cannot have something being " ... intention and a critical part of evolution." at the same time attributing it to " ... design and not by mistake". Sooner or later one must side with the religion in which the keyl doctrine is : ' the universe 'just happened', and continues as 'a series of random events', or else admit an intelligent design. Which demands an intelligent Designer.
"...seeking financial riches from his food club..."
So Mr. Schlangen cannot gain ANY profit from his business, while industrial ag can pay dairy farmers nothing and charge consumers $4/ gallon? That seems like "seeking financial riches".
Mama
“Industrial ag.”? Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to them as, “The Industrial Ag Crime Syndicate”.
Ken
Just like there are no microbes that don't perform some necessary function in the system,the same holds true for people no matter what they believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBvJmCPjAek
miguel
Migel
Your statement is very true. Ecclesiastes 3 states, “For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven”.
Ken
Miguel,
That is a viral classic.....love it!!
Can't go wrong with the heirs of Woody Guthrie. American populism & communism at its finest! HEHAW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46mO7jx3JEw
@Bill Anderson,
Weird. I guess all those raw milk drinkers (and my milk farmers) I know who don't fit into the bigoted, religious-right, etc. category must be anomalies. I'm really lucky! All those Gordon Watsons raging around, and I've never met a single one personally. It's like homeschooling. All those intelligent, loving parents I know and hear about are the exception; it's the vague, nameless brutes starving little kids and locking them in closets who make up the majority. Yes, I know we're not supposed to trust the evidence of our own observation and experience. That's a great way of making us swallow all kinds of claptrap that goes against our better judgment.
'
"raging-around" ?! ... you mean, like showing up at the Courthouse when the local health authority thugs slap some of their idiotic paperwork on me? What's your alternative? You think raw milk farmers can hide out in the tooly-bushes under the radar, and the Big Bad Wolf will leave them alone? Think again, Mama.
I know your type = you're the ones who gave me the most trouble in the so-called "Pro-Life Movement" = people ostensibly on my side, who never failed to chant "you catch more flied with honey than with vinegar" ... yeah, well, I'm not in the fly-catching business. Some people are called to be the "sharp end of the stick" when it comes to war-faring. I've found out what you have yet to learn ; one cannot grovel low enough to please the tyrant. But people in your mentality don't know that because you've never heard a shot fired in anger.
Hey Mama,
I have no dispute with you. Keep on fighting the good fight.
My contention is that there are bigger fish to fry. How can we take on the schooling-industrial complex when we have a rampant military-industrial-complex?
Priorities.