An Inside View of FDA Arms Buildup
Last May, Sen. Rand Paul proposed an amendment to a spending bill for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to reduce the agency's police powers. He was especially concerned about "sending armed FDA agents into peaceful farmers’ land and telling them they can’t sell milk directly from the cow."
He added, "Some of you might be surprised the FDA is armed. Well, you shouldn’t be."
Sen. Paul's proposal (which was roundly defeated, with 15 Senators in favor) prompted a Sarah Lawrence College student, Will Duffield, to file a request under the federal Freedom on Information Act, seeking, "Itemized records of all firearms and destructive devices (as defined in 26 USC § 5845) possessed by the Food and Drug Administration. Additionally, all records pursuant to the acquisition, maintenance, and deployment of said weapons is requested."
The FDA provided 35 pages of documents showing the purchase of 52 Sig handguns (most with night sights) and 28 Remington shotguns. The purchases were made between 2007 and 2011, according to the documents. (Unfortunately, the documents were larger than this system could accommodate, so I can't make them available here.)
But that isn't the entire extent of the purchases. The FDA said in its response to Duffield: "Certain material has been deleted from the records furnished to you because a preliminary review of the records indicated that the deleted information is not required to be publicly disclosed and that disclosure is not appropriate."
Why was information deleted? Among the checked-box reasons:
The information "would disclose techniques, procedures or guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, if such disclosure could reasonably be expected to risk circumvention of the law" and "could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of an individual."
Also omitted: "Documents constituting records compiled for law enforcement purposes which contain law enforcement techniques, the disclosure of which could reasonably be expected to risk circumvention of laws or regulations, or impede the effectiveness of law enforcement activities."
Sounds like the old "protection" excuse to me. The FDA specializes in "protection," after all--first and foremost about protecting its interests.
I think it's safe to assume that these documents describe only the tip of the FDA's armaments iceberg. There are a lot of weapons being stashed away in agency offices around the country. And why do they need the night sights? For night raids of small farms?
In his Senate speech in favor of the amendment, Rand summarized the situation in alarming terms: "We have nearly 40 federal agencies that are armed. I’m not against having police, I’m not against the army, the military, the FBI, but I think bureaucrats don’t need to be carrying weapons and I think what we ought to do, is if there is a need for an armed policeman to be there, the FBI who are trained to do this should do it. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to be arming bureaucrats to go on the farm to, with arms, to stop people from selling milk from a cow. I think we have too many armed federal agencies, and that we need to put an end to this."
This site's mission is to provide news and analysis about food rights and raw milk. Increasingly, our access to privately available food is under attack by government and industry forces that seek to impose their choices on us. The Complete Patient seeks to provide up-to-date information and encourage the development of community to maintain traditional food acquisition options.
Well, its good to know that Rand Paul (Mr. Libertarian himself) supports the FBI. You know... only the most egregious violator of domestic civil liberties over the last 100 years. The spawn of J Edgar Hoover, the architect of COINTELPRO and the modern police state.
Like I tell my friends who are liberals... I'm in favor of gun control. Let's start by disarming the police and military. And I certainly wouldn't stop at the FDA. Let's disarm the FBI, CIA, Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force. THEN we can start talking about disarming the tea bagging racists.
I also kind of like Tom Morello's proposal to arm the homeless. That would sure frighten the real estate banksters.
I have no further comments. Carry on with the usual histrionics.
Bill,
“If we are to go forward, we must go back and rediscover those precious values - that all reality hinges on moral foundations and that all reality has spiritual control”.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Ken
Where does the quote say Rand supports the FBI? He is merely asserting they in their role lawfully carry firearms, unlike other agencies. He is not commenting on whether or not there should be an FBI in the first place.
You don't understand the phrase, "I'm not against"? It's certainly not possible to be neutral where it comes to professional (i.e. mercenary) armed cadres. You're for them or against them. A bona fide civil libertarian is, of course, against them, by definition.
Why would the fda have need of any weapons? Night vision? They indeed are pathetic.
People are surprised that DNR (Department of Natural Resources) officers all the way to IRS agents come armed. They are all armed. Oh, and a little context on the guy who supposedly loves free speech by wearechange at YouTube (Nemmers is putting things into context again, isn't he?) "Rand Paul Tries to Intimidate & Harass Journalist After A Youtube Video" [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UKXpzdFQ_I ] And Rand Paul attracts "Voluntaryists" (It's a code word for Anarchists, isn't it?), doesn't he? In fact, don't Max Kane and Liz Reitzig hang around with a bunch of Anarchists? [ http://www.lemonadefreedom.com/ ]. Those Anarchists (sorry - 'voluntaryists' - 'freeman' -where have I heard 'freeman' before?) promote the legalization of drugs, don't they? David, are you a libertarian that promotes the legalization of drugs? Is the Raw Milk issue really a front for the libertarian party?
http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Vancouver+researcher+finds+shot+linke...
Remember the flu shot doesn't make you sick.....
The Dr. states, “But in the meantime, Skowronski insisted the findings should not deter people from getting flu shots.”
She elaborates on the above statement in the following article,
http://www.canada.com/health/all/shot+problem+dismissed+Canadian+problem...
"But who knows, frankly? The wise man knows he knows nothing when it comes to influenza, so you always have to be cautious in speculating."
Now that is certainly a mouthful, I wonder if the doctor will role up her sleeve and get a flue shot?
Ken
"Now that is certainly a mouthful, I wonder if the doctor will role up her sleeve and get a flue shot?" There are all sorts of instigators out there that would that dupe people into doing things that the instigator would never, ever consider doing themselves, aren't there?
Actually, churchlanefarm, many of them do indeed get the flu shot & in most states & facilities it is a mandated requirement unless you are allergic to the serum. Luckily for me, I am allergic, so I am able to opt out from it.
And to add to that...those that I know of personally, that did receive the flu shot did indeed get very sick within 24 hrs, while I did not get sick & I didn't have the shot, nor did I get the flu despite being exposed to it day in & day out.
When my husband was in the army and he couldn't get out of the yearly flu shot, he'd also get sick within a few days and it would last for about 2 weeks after receiving the shot. On those years when he didn't get the shot, he didn't get sick. I've worked with very ill people for the last 20+ years and never got the flu or any other illness from them.
Patients often say they get the shot adn still get the flu.
" in most states & facilities it is a mandated requirement"
There was a hospital in Fresno that required the chickenpox vax. (I had chicken pox when I was 4) I refused and accepted a contract in Sacramento that paid much better. I've never had a flu shot and never will accept one.
"The aim of this study was to identify the barriers and reasons why these nurses did not vaccinate themselves against pertussis despite the fact that the pertussis vaccine is the vaccine these nurses administer to infants every day. These barriers may not be specific towards the pertussis vaccine and may help understand non-compliance towards other vaccines." What lies behind the low rates of vaccinations among nurses who treat infants?, Vaccine 30 (2012) 3151–3154.
Yep, can definitely relate to that Sylvia, I have seen time after time. Thank goodness I can't take the shot, there's no argument there, lol! In fact, anyone who has an egg white allergy or sensitivity should not have the flu shot at all.
"In fact, anyone who has an egg white allergy or sensitivity should not have the flu shot at all." I guess you think that mercury is good for you, huh? Are you deficient of mercury in your system?
Thimerosal Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative used in some vaccines and other products since the 1930's. There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. However, in July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/
Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines.
Well, Mister Know it All - an egg allergy is a legitimate way to refuse the mandated required flu shot if you work in the medical field (obviously, you've never worked in the medical field!!!)...they are not interested in using the excuse of wanting to avoid mercury!!!
So when I was licensed as a doctor in two different states (It's a matter of the public record, isn't it?) I didn't know anything about health, huh? So are you defecient in mercury? Inquiring minds want to know, don't they?
Now you are claiming you were a medical doctor in two other states?!
I don't need to "claim" anything when it matter part of the public record, do I? Or do I need to explain it in even smaller words? So are you defecient in mercury? Inquiring minds still want to know, don't they?
A little off topic, but the November election is just around the corner, so for those of you that live here in California, I would like to encourage all of you to be involved with getting the word out about supporting Yes on Prop 37 (the right to know what is in our food). We have the opportunity to set into precedence the wave to begin informing the consumer if their food product contains GMO ingredients. There is great material and information on various websites, such as: http://www.carighttoknow.org or http://www.saynotogmos.org or http://www.nongmoproject.org these are just a few of the websites loaded with important information. Please share with all of your friends, neighbors and family members. If you are on Facebook, look for many postings of groups of concerned families that are holding informative rallys at Walmart and other standard grocery stores, please join them to show your support. This initiative is probably one of the most important ones that we as voters can win at.
Also, off topic, today, please remember all of those that we lost on 9/11, all of the flight crews, the passengers, the people within the Twin Towers, the firefighters, the policemen, the volunteers and my two cousins. Your prayers would be greatly appreciated, I am still having issues with losing two very special people in my life, I miss them each and every day. Thank you and many blessings to each of you!
Interesting conversation.
I like market building....when everone is drinking raw milk...then regulations regarding raw milk will become more fair and research dollars will find their way to raw milk. First teach and build market. This is happening in CA. Major changes occuring in the markets. In the last 10 years, fluid milk utilization from the production of all fluid milk in CA dropped from 17% to 13%. That is a 4% drop in 10 years. That is massive and during that same time, hundreds of millions was spent to prop up fluid milk consumption. It did not work. The Milk Mustache failed miserably. Yogurt is ok and so are butter and cheese....but not dead milk.
Take this same example to the Second Amendment. I am a peace loving, freedom loving guy 100%. But I also take personal responsibility very seriously. If more Americans were competetant gun owners, if more Americans took responsibility for their own safety, both through peace making and also gun ownership ( or other means of effective protection )....the powers at be would be a whole lot less carefree about brandishing guns and thinking they can take lives at will. The ability to shoot back is crucial to our freedom. Our forefathers knew this....this is the basis for the 2nd Amendment. The knowledge that the citizens ( or most of them ) care about freedom and will defend that freedom is critical to the respect that we will keep.
Ever attend a CCW class? ( gun permit class ) or shooting range ? You will not find a more polite or considerate group of people. When others know that you are cabable of lethal force...they treat you with a different regard.
When I met with my State Department of Public health guys last year, they knew that I am fully prepared to defend myself on the farm. As a direct result they were very considerate and did not trample my rights. I also respected their rights and kept them inside of the bounds of their rights and authorities. I mind my manners and so do they. Everything works just fine.
We Americans start having major problems when we abondon the hard work of defending and exercising all of our rights. If we want freedom...we must exercise it. That includes the responsibility to learn how to shoot straight and be a law abiding citizen. Everyones Manners will become a whole lot better if we all knew that we all had taken responsibility for the our full range of rights.
I can not think of one of the major shootings that have recently happened that would have occured, if more people had Concealed Weapon Permits, and the training that goes with this responsibility. When Super Ass KillerMan entered the Batman Theater, he should have been dropped after his first shot or sooner. With a room full of people, at least 3 should have been armed and protected the balance.
It is all kind of like good bacteria and bad bacteria. In a sterile environment only the pathogens are fed and they have the power to really mess things up. Just like post pasteurization contamination.
In raw milk, the place is filled with good bacteria and the pathogens never have a chance to dominate or grow. As long as the good are powerful and moral....the bad will be contained.
This is a natural law. That also does not mean that every one needs to go out and pack heat. We just need enough people to take this responsibility seriously, so that no idiot sicko enters into a movie theater thinking that the room is filled with no one that can and will shoot back. This may all sound strange coming from Mark McAfee. I love and honor peace.
This world is filled with terrible and horrible things. It is not filled with rainbows and dreamy thoughts of daisies. We should not be preoccupied with guns ....but there are those that are. So we the peace keepers must take this responsibility seriously and be the probiotic in the world....
Love and peace...comes with responsibility also, just like eating, your health, your immune system and your GUT.
Calling 911 works great....but it is far to late. Even with paramedics...we the citizens need to know first aid and CPR or the paramedic efforts do not work so great. The same goes for police officers and their efforts to protect us. We the people are responsible and as we make it our goverments responsibility more and more....we are less and less free...and sicker and sicker and sometimes deader and deader.
"I like market building....when everone is drinking raw milk...then regulations regarding raw milk will become more fair and research dollars will find their way to raw milk." Kind of hard to have that happen if all the raw milk farmers end up in jail or on probation for years and years, huh? Exactly how has going out and getting arrested (David excluded, right?) stopped the prosecution of raw milk farmers? It hasn't, has it? Why? Because arresting and prosecuting people show politicians doing their job, doesn't it? It builds politicians' reputations, doesn't it?
"Ernesto Cortes Jr., organizer of the Industrial Areas Foundation network in Texas and the San Antonio-based Communities Organized for Public Service (COPS), has plainly described activist's necessary relationship to elected officials: “It's unfortunate that fear is the only way to get some politicians to respect your power. The refuse to give you respect. They don't recognize your dignity. So we have to act in ways to get their attention. In some areas, what we have going is the amount of fear we can generate. We got where we are because people fear and loathe us.”(1)" Randy Shaw. The Activist Handbook, page 45.
And the “revolution” isn't buying off politicians via lobbying, is it? So how are you going to get politicians to fear raw milk farmers? It would appear that the only viable option (The one that the “revolution” doesn't want to tell you about - David's false dilemma, right?) is exposing local corruption, isn't it? If you can educate the public that the government obstructs justice in raw milk prosecutions, then the crooked government will stop doing the malicious prosecutions, won't they?
"It would appear that the only viable option (The one that the “revolution” doesn't want to tell you about - "David's false dilemma, right?) is exposing local corruption, isn't it? If you can educate the public that the government obstructs justice in raw milk prosecutions, then the crooked government will stop doing the malicious prosecutions, won't they?"
If you think I created "a dilemma," please know I didn't intend to. You are correct, I didn't mention "exposing local corruption" as an option, and that was an oversight on my part. It's not something I have written a lot about or been heavily involved with, but not because I don't think it is important. If you can point me toward evidence showing "the government obstructs justice in raw milk prosecutions" in particular cases, I will be glad to consider writing about it and/or to link to what you write so we can "educate the public" and "stop the malicious prosecutions..."
"If you can point me toward evidence showing "the government obstructs justice in raw milk prosecutions" in particular cases, I will be glad to consider writing about it and/or to link to what you write so we can "educate the public" and "stop the malicious prosecutions..." "
Minnesota Food Freedom Farmer Alvin Schlangen Published on May 9, 2012 by CreationKeeper
short version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdEoMNYmco . Lion News: Alvin Schlangen - Minneapolis MN Prosecutes Him For Crimes He Didn't Commit! Published on Aug 13, 2012 by ArrestAJudgeKit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBY3LLRoPk0 (Corrected Version)
Thanks for those videos. I had seen your interview of Schlangen and was going to link to it when I write further about his case upcoming. In the meantime, for your background, here are a couple of posts I have done about the crackdown in MN, including the campaign against Schlangen, and state government abuse:
http://www.thecompletepatient.com/article/2012/may/17/lots-bobbing-and-w...
http://www.thecompletepatient.com/article/2011/march/11/what-do-you-call...
"Thanks for those videos." No problem. "I had seen your interview of Schlangen and was going to link to it when I write further about his case upcoming." Oh, so you have known about the state breaking into Alvin's van without a warrant, haven't you? However, you have decided to sit on this information until after the conviction, haven't you? By the way, did you ever report that crooked state guy for "mis-using his handicapped plate"?
"By the way, did you ever report that crooked state guy for "mis-using his handicapped plate"?"
If you read his blog you would know the answer to that.
"If you read his blog you would know the answer to that." True. However, I could counter that if you have a library card, you should be able to tell me everything about any book in the library, right? Or anything on any topic in your set of encyclopedias? Or do the same about any article in any issue of your newspaper?
"However, you have decided to sit on this information until after the conviction, haven't you?"
Darn, you found me out.
David,
The Government manufactures evidence for use in closing down small businesses that it doesn't approve of.The use of the word "match" as in "we have found matching fingerprints" when referring to PFGE patterns is deceptive. Milky Way repeatedly uses this word to imply that this is evidence against a cheese maker or small dairy.The correct phrase is "we are unable to distinguish between the two samples"There is a big difference between the two. Two microbes can have identical PFGE patterns without being genetically related.
The whole fable that Health departments can track microbes from a stool sample back to the soil on a farm should be exposed.Looking at pieces of DNA of a microbe does not tell you how that microbe will act.Epigenetics is the study of how a cell's environment influences how it's genetic potential is expressed. In other words -- Biologic context determines whether a microbe is beneficial or detrimental to the host.
You are absolutely correct, user2756, this is something similar to what I had posted some time back. The state does not have the proper sophisticated equipment, the time, nor the proper expertise to properly analyse the samples. There is much more involved to truly analysis & match these samples. Definitely the cell's environment plays a big part on how they behave & react. There is a great book that helps one to understand the complexities on this subject matter "Seeds of Deception", this is a great book that is easy to read & understand for the layperson. This is also why the concerns regarding the effects that GM/GE (genetic modification/genetic engineered) have on the native cells of which it has been inserted in, as well as, how it affects the cells & DNA of the people/animals that consume the GMOd item. I highly recommend everyone to read this book, it is an eye opener!
This subject has been brought up years ago on this blog.If we don't believe the health department's test results why do we let them use those tests to harass us?The understanding of how bacteria behave has changed enormously in the last five years.Why do the CDC and state Health departments still use testing methods that are not in agreement with our present understanding? Is it because it fits their agenda and because we are afraid to question the validity of their methods?
Milky Way,
Am I right that "match" is the wrong word to use when describing the results of PFGE tests? I know that the patterns might match but the inference is that we have matched the DNA of two samples.This is NOT necessarily so. Why do you persist with this disinformation? How many enzymes need to be used in the testing to assure that we have similar samples? How many enzymes do the labs routinely use? And even if they did use enough enzymes and do enough tests,would the results really give us any useful information? Isn't it true that microbes respond differently depending on their situation?
miguel
"This is a natural law." So is exposing corrupt officials.
'During the 1910s and 1920s, the third degree was frequently publicized by the media and civic organizations (Chisholm and Hart, 1922), and in some cities *** police complained that they were perpetually on the defensive against the charge of improprieties.*** In the ** muckraking tradition of the Progressive era, newspapers regularly reported allegations of police abuses and decried violent interrogation practices in popular editorials, graphically describing the disfiguring injuries that sometimes resulted. ** Plays were written about the third degree and performed in theaters. In detective fiction and motion pictures, the third degree was treated as a standard police practice. Bar association committees, civil liberties group, and grand juries investigated custodial police abuses and issued reports. Sometimes police officers joined the fray by publicly defending and justifying their third-degree methods in news stories, articles, and books (See Chisolm and Hart, 1922).
Popular criticism of police interrogation practices culminated in 1931 with the publication of Volume 11 of the Wickersham Commission Report, Report on Lawlessness in Law Enforcement. *** It created a national scandal. ***'
Richard A. Leo, Police Interrogation and American Justice, (Cambridge: 2008), Page 69-70.
I also love use of Video cameras....cool headed people can review the conduct of idiots and society is better because of this rational exposure of missconduct.
"I also love use of Video cameras....cool headed people can review the conduct of idiots and society is better because of this rational exposure of missconduct." Then you'd love my YouTube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/ArrestAJudgeKit ) - I go toe-to-toe with cops, county attorneys, county commisioners, the attorney general's office. I've even got the FBI on video (phone conversations) a couple of times. That is how you keep them off your back - you show them being the crooks! Believe me you have plenty of material to work with.
Thank you for bringing coverage to this issue, David. I applaud Senator Paul for proposing his amendment and its defeat says a lot. We citizens certainly need to continue and increase vigilant scrutiny of our government.
People who are rude generally don't care about other people.
Are Rhetorical Questions Persuasive?
"By arousing curiosity, rhetorical questions motivate people to try to answer the question that is posed. Consequently, people pay closer attention to information relevant to the rhetorical question. . . ."
Perhaps with one or two rhetorical questions the subject may be further thought on by the listeners. When EVERY sentence becomes a question, then very few really listen.
"At this point, I think it is important to note that the fundamental problem in the study of rhetorical questions is the lack of focus on the persuasive effectiveness of different types of rhetorical questions. Clearly, an ironical rhetorical question is going to have a different effect on an audience than an agreement rhetorical question. Unfortunately, little research has been conducted on how different types of rhetorical questions operate in a persuasive context."
(David R. Roskos-Ewoldsen, "What Is the Role of Rhetorical Questions in Persuasion?" Communication and Emotion: Essays in Honor of Dolf Zillmann, ed. by Jennings Bryant et al. Lawrence Erlbaum, 2003)
"People who are rude generally don't care about other people." Thanks for your generalization. So are you an "expert" on rudeness or speech? By the way - is it 'rude' to not take vaccinations yourself but to give helpless, little, tiny, kiddies vaccinations for pay? Plus, is the previous question rhetorical or do I really want you to answer it? Maybe you need to work on your psychological manipulation, huh?
“However, the influence exerted by the covert methods of interpersonal control is harmful to human well-being and normal development. One of the major ways such methods work is through the evocation of human misery in the myriad of shame, guilt, and anxiety.” Gaslighting, The Double Whammy, Interrogation and Other Covert Control in Psychotherapy & Analysis, Theo L. Dorpat (Maryland: 2004), Page 29.
Did I say I was an "expert"? Why do you presume much?
Do you give "helpless, little, tiny, kiddies vaccinations for pay?"
Do you really care if anyone answers your questions?
Why do you assume there is any attempt to manipulate?
I've read blogs for years and have read this blog since its beginning. In Terry Dean Remmers' case, he is the first person for whom I've decided to totally skip reading his posts. So much for his presumed effectiveness of his writing style. It's wonderfully liberating to eliminate something so irksome. It's just bothersome to have to deal with the extra volume all his posts have created.
http://www.sacbee.com/2012/08/19/4736256/legal-team-reaches-out-to-farme...
It appears many are preparing for a long fight.
Regarding MW’s clever digs about being “voted off the island” (now disappeared):
MW, Are you implying that there’s more honor in voting people off the mainland (especially with fees, fines, guns and jail terms)?
Personally I’m quite content to be an island man, since the herds on the mainland are continually in trouble, whether they know it or not. : )
This thread has to do with FDA agents carrying guns and terrorizing small farmers … Lots of people are trying to fix this club known as the US government. It’s a club that acquired most of the land it claims by mass murder btw. Hundreds of indigenous Nations existed on this land, yet today if you get yourself a globe you won’t see one remaining. The Washington gang did not leave one Native nation with one square inch of their homeland. How many children, women and men did the US club murder in this process?
I’m sure there are people in this forum that can flesh out this story into more recent times, the kinds of horrible things this club is involved with around the world today. The question is, is this a horse you’d want to bet on? This club is a disaster. It always has been. Yes I went thru the brainwashing scam school system too, but then I grew up. I admire some of the original founders of this club, I see some real good intentions, but … Thomas Jefferson called the United States a great experiment. At this point, can we all agree, an experiment that failed? 97% of the ancient forests gone, a sickly, obese population, a terrorist government that operates in secret, globally, putting in power the most horrible police states while the scam media portrays these other countries as being run by the people who live imprisoned there… A club that funds itself by extortion, a club that will put me in prison for simply walking outside to the lake naked.
I bring this up as a reality check, and for people who are kidding themselves that this is a club that you could or would want to fix. For all the people who join this horrible club, if they would redirect their efforts into something good, we would see real change. Evil is not the only power in this Universe. Confronting evil is one way to change things, but energizing good is another way, and that’s the main point I want to make here. So many people are so distracted reacting to the bad guys, who is feeding the good pattern? Some of us believe the seed of the whole Universe is within each of us, and when you get your own backyard in order, you help everything, even the sick minds of the sick people that won’t let us buy real milk.
This blog says its mission is to help improve access to the foods of our choice. So here are some ideas: what I did is “purchase” five acres, mostly wooded, and I preserve it, and the forest provides wild food, I have a cage I can catch raccoon, rabbits, …deer come thru the woods. I’m learning from Nature, I’ve learned a lot from traditional Native Americans, and others, … I am working out what trees to plant in my orchard, I will be switching to a no till type of gardening, using pine needles and oak leaves as mulch, … I want to get a couple goats to browse the wooded area, keep the fire fuel down, and provide goat’s milk, … and I’m working on chickens…
I see there are farmers in this forum, which is great, and what I really hope to see is people in general reconnecting to the Earth, providing their own food and energy, dropping out of the establishment’s system as makes sense, and dropping into harmony with the Universe. I’ve used a bicycle for the last 24 years, it works great, no car expenses or pollution.
People could really improve their food choices by returning to living in groups, as most all our ancestors did. The fragmented nuclear family lifestyle of today is promoted endlessly as part of the establishment’s divide and conquer program. Our ancestors lived in matrilineal families, blood kin on your mother’s side, a woman’s brother was the male guardian for her children, and no one spent much time speculating about who the biological father of any particular child might have been… you had 25 or less people in your family, a very efficient size for food production and communication, 25 or so families make a village, 25 or so villages had their central city, making a city state, a nation. Your family would recognize a representative, 25 reps would recognize a village leader, and 25 village leaders would recognize a leader for the nation. So each individual had only 2 people between them and the leader of your nation. Quite a bit different than the insane power structures we see today, where millions of people are supposed to write letters to “their congressman” if they need to communicate. Most of the debates in this forum re “capitalism”, “free markets”, “socialism”, … would evaporate if people understood the brilliance and streamlined simplicity of the basic Nation structure I have outlined here, a structure once found around the world, but that has been hidden by the establishment, just as Weston Price’s findings of the great health of people around the world living outside the establishment food system were never taught to me in school… Btw the longest lived societies are always the ones most isolated from the global establishment.
So returning to group living would greatly improve your food choices, but given the current condition of most people’s minds, it might not be easy. I’ve tried twice to form a community of about 25 people, where each would buy five acres, but in unison, and retain title individually, but agree to preserve most and each would have right of trespass thru the others’ preserves… with community kitchen, clubhouse, etc etc. People weren’t interested so I went to plan B, the five acres alone… I’m currently looking for land closer to town but still country, the show must go on…
What a great post, Tom, and you are so correct, especially about what happened to the Native Indians. It is a shame how they were pushed, shoved, and killed off their lands. As far as, the food supply, well there will never be any significant, healthy change within the standard grocery chains, nor the mega super stores. Yes, to be really certain about the quality, wholesomeness, nutrient dense foods that a person wants to be consuming, one must be willing to produce their own and/ or find farmers who can. What I would like to see is new neighborhoods being built and/or renovated to include individual and community gardens with assistance in wholistic/organic, pesticides, chemical free teaching to each of the homeowners.
Re matrilineal families, to clarify, these were stable populations, not increasing over time, and it wasn't because of "high infant mortality" (actually they were much healthier than people today). The families were large but not because women had a lot of children, your family included aunts, uncles, great uncles, etc. Re improving access to the foods of our choice, something people could do, that doesn't require the permission of some sleazy politician or anyone else, is to simply refrain from adding to the insane overpopulation of today.
When I was born there were 11 acres of land per person on Mother Earth. Today it's about 5 acres per person. Take out desert and tundra, how much greenspace remains? If every person uses one acre to feed themself, look at the impact. Then add in roads, parking lots, lawns, ... every year an area of pristine rainforest the size of England is being cut down, for more plantations, paper products, furniture, disposable chopsticks...
If you want to "improve access to the foods of our choice", consider how abundant and generous nature is when it's not destroyed. Clean rivers and lakes and seas filled with delicious fish, woods and grasslands filled with food, animal and plant... And does the health of the earth affect our health? Orangutans, gorillas, bonobos (our closest relative), florida panther, the largest bird in north america, ... now EXTiNCT or effectively so, as this insane human overpopulation continues to multiply, while the media cartel, establishment school system, etc etc black most of this out. The establishment wants you impoverished and dependent. The last thing they want is 75 million bison roaming free in north america, people with their own food supply, lives of ease... So they got rid of the buffalo. And they've done this around the planet. Destroying a people's food supply and stealing their land is a cornerstone to the establishment's program. (I can hear the random event theorists chuckling, "Are you suggesting there can be organized evil in the universe?!! Preposterous!) No, it aint preposterous.
So, you want more good food choices, what if people were to voluntarily, radically depopulate over time to a number that is in harmony with all the Earth?
Tom,
What number do you suggest we aim for, and how do you arrive at such a number? And would you volunteer yourself into that number who needs "radically depopulated?"
I think Joel and others have shown, while population at some point is certainly a limiting factor on a finite planet, the bigger problems currently are consumption per person (aka lifestyle and living assumption factors, like water based rather than composting toilets, see his great book "Folks This Ain't Normal"), and inefficient use of existing resources, which is also primarily driven by government interventions in the economy that cause these improper and inefficient uses.
When I drive from where I live to work once a week (I primarily work from home to conserve resources and for other reasons), I pass thousands of acres of land. 80% of that land is in little to no agricultural production. Of the 20% that is, almost none is being utilized to even half of its potential like at a farm such as Polyface.
At least on the food front, there is little problem feeding current numbers and probably a good bit more, if not for the government subsidizing of the destructive big ag food system and its farms and the growing hegemony of Monsatan over the food supply.
Depopulation wouldn't stop big bad food, Monsatan, CArgill, tyson, etc. for a moment, so it doesn't appear to be the end all be all solution you propose. These companies would still be the dominant forces in the food system both nationally and globally, still pushing GMO's, chemicals, and more, and using especially the US gov't as their pawn.
The government also at least in the US subsidizes the mis-having of children in large numbers, though they also subsidize the murder of children as well.
JohnM, please reread both my posts, you are missing what I'm saying.
"What number do you suggest we aim for, and how do you arrive at such a number? And would you volunteer yourself into that number that needs "radically depopulated"?" Elderly people leave the earth every day, on their own. We can voluntarily, radically depopulate over time by having less people coming in than leaving. This is not the only planet in the universe. A number I like, 50 miles by 50 miles of land for each nation of the type I described. So an island like Ireland, would have about 25 of these nations, and you'd have over 1/3 of a million people on that island. I put numbers in terms of acres per person in my post, so people can put things in perspective.
"I pass thousands of acres of land. 80% ... is in little or no agricultural production..." Consider that your species is not the only species on the planet, and Nature has many uses for that land for the millions of other species that have a right to live here too.
"Depopulation wouldn't stop big bad food, Monsanto, ... for a moment... so it doesn't appear to be the end all solution you propose." I don't recall saying it was the end all solution. Reread my first post. If people returned to producing their own food, then yes that would stop Monsanto... One of the main selling points for using GMOs is to "increase yields to feed the growing masses" btw. Overpopulation is multiplying all our other problems: pollution, deforestation, extinction...
Re "mishaving of children", if you are referring to having children "out of wedlock", consider that it is wedlock and the nuclear family structure that is the problem. The nuclear family is natural for some species of birds, but we are not birds, we are mammals.
Here's a phrase I came up with if you want to throw in on your bumper: There's nothing "pro life" about Extinction".
oh, spare me the myth of 'Hiawatha the noble savage' ... I've heard that fable spun for nigh-on 60 years. It ended when I got out of suburbia and met a few real indians.
They're the first to tell you that life in America, prior to white contact, was "nasty, bruitish and short" = Organized, on-going evil? Find out who the prime promoters of that eugenicist / reduction-ist palaver are = the Rothschild/ Rockefeller apparat. In whose pay was Thomas Malthus, saying the same things you're saying. In fact, there are now more aboriginal people alive on this continent, than there ever were, and they live in conditions - running water / electricity / guaranteed food supply / welfare cheque delivered on time - for which their ancestors would gladly have traded places.
Your myth of a golden age of primeval aboriginal life plays well to armchair anthropologists .. but you'll notice they aren't out there on the Arctic ice, whaling, are they? Listen : when I went to Vancouver Vocational Institute in 1972, one of my classmates in our electronics technician course was Chris Jones, a full-blooded Haida, from Queen Charlotte Islands. When she was a little girl, his grandmother, a princess of that tribe, had had a personal slave to chew her food for her. Point being : within living memory, slavery was a fact of their life. And don't want get me started on cani~baal-ism
Gordon,
"They're the first to tell you, life in America, prior to White contact, was "nasty bruitish and short". Those must be some pretty long lived Indians you know, because prior to white contact was 500 years ago. I'd suggest you take it easy with the book reading, and go check things out in the real world, My "armchair anthropologist" ideas are based on my dealings with some of the last of the true traditional Natives in the country. As far as life being short for the "noble savage", go look into recent evidence for the Hunzas, Bamas, Titicacans, Georgians, Okinowans, ... people that routinely lived in good health well into their hundreds. Go look at the pictures Weston Price took from around the world in the 1930s, showing how people had no tooth decay, no crooked teeth, great health, no tuberculosis, ... and rethink your idea of them wanting to switch over to flouridated water, electricity that is discordant with your body, and food stamps to be able to go buy corporate, hormone laiden, genetically altered, poison infested, corporate "food". Cannabalism? Give me a break, stop watching Gilligan's Island reruns.
Excuuuse me for going off topic, there, but I've had it to the back teeth with half a century of so-called "human rights activists" + yarn-spinners going on about how the abos. lived serenely in Elysian fields before Cabot /Cortez et al. Whose answer to every difficulty is : "it's the whiteman's fault"
as for canni~baal-ism = You're the one watching too much tv. I'm the one who did the field research, on Indian reserves and in archived coroner's reports. Back in the 1990s, when I was researching what actually goes on in the Coast Salish big Houses, versus the myths promulgated by the professional multi-cult grant-getters, I met with the Chief Coroner of British Columbia to discuss the "Hamatsa" cult. He wanted to know what I'd discovered about it continuing in modern times : it does. And I'm going to leave it at that
I was under the impression this forum was about the Campaign for REAL MILK. If you can name me one single status Indian, who's milking a cow / goat / sheep for milk for his own family's consumption, I'd like to meet him. Meanwhile, all the rest of his kinsmen are happy to pick up their milk and cream and especially pizza cheese at the local trading post, produced by white folks
The Natives I know that live in the Everglades are descended from the ones that fled there in the last of the "Seminole wars" where the US Govt folks tried to exterminate them permanently. They never surrendered or went on a reservation, not the ones I know. AIM activist Russell Means, in his autobiography, calls them one of the last of three small pockets of traditional Indians still living in the US. When they build their chikees, sometimes they use wood from a living tree, but what they do is they hug the tree to feel if it's ok, if not they find another. They cut the tree so that it continues living. Anyway my point is I don't get the feeling these folks boil people in palm oil and eat them. The people you're hooked into, I won't comment on. As far as weird cults, I know of none weirder than the "Christian" ones that have a voodoo doll of a dead or dying guy they want you to think is Jesus, and they simulate eating his body and drinking his blood, while the high priest proclaims his death in the present tense, and people wear these voodoo doll crucifixes around their necks. How'd you like someone doing a ritual like that attacking you?
Off topic there too, but anyway as far as raw milk, it wasn't part of their history here in north america. But this forum is about real food in general. Natives are found around the world. My ancestors come from Ireland, and I still have kin there. But when I talk to them about Irish history and my roots, they are clueless, they are afraid of their history, because they only know the establishment's version. They are hooked in with that middle east religion that obviously is not native to Ireland. I don't trust their version of history, they've been under attack by the establishment for a long long time, as have Native Americans. I don't claim that every ancient nation had it perfect. I do claim that the answers to most of the questions re real food lie in the past, and have been hidden from us. It's not about "the white man" being the bad guy, it's the establishment that is the bad guy.