RAWMI Begins to Earn Its Spurs by Cracking the Insurance Code for Members
The toughest part of launching any new business or organization is getting those first few believers to come on board, and then talk you up to the bulk of other prospective customers or members.
Now, more than a year into its launch, the Raw Milk Institute (RAWMI) seems finally to have begun attracting those first few believers. A key to turning heads for RAWMI has been its ability to deliver product liability insurance for its safety conscious members. It's taken longer than founder Mark McAfee would have liked, but that's often the way it is with new organizations seeking to implement a new model for doing things, especially within an industry under intense government regulatory pressure.
RAWMI's first certified member is an Oregon dairy, Champoeg Creamery. Its owner Charlotte Smith, explained to its customers last week how RAWMI had already begun to make a big difference to the dairy's operations. I thought Smith's explanation was more eloquent than anything I might write, so I am publishing her letter to customers here: 
Good Morning, Champoeg Creamery Milk Customers,
First, let me say how much I value and appreciate each one of you. I'm in awe that you make the commitment to drive out of your way each week or two in order to pick up your milk. I love hearing all the amazing stories of good and improved health from incorporating raw milk and all the goodies you make from it into your diet. I have customers who talk about their kid's behavior improving, autism symptoms lessening, pain & other symptoms from auto-immune disorders being relieved, eczema/asthma/allergies improving or disappearing, colitis and acid reflux disappearing... the list goes on and on.
I don't always update you on our farm happenings, and although I try to include you in the exciting ones, I usually downplay the difficult ones because I think that's being a professional. However, I want to balance that professionalism with making you aware of some of the hardship and especially the politics of raw milk so you can continue to play a part in making it available in Oregon and the US. Milking cows is hard enough work - add to that being in an industry that is attacked politically and otherwise on a regular basis, and, well, let's just say I have a great support system to keep me from giving up on the darkest of days.
As I mentioned earlier, we are the first dairy in the nation to be "Listed" by the Raw Milk Institute. [Editor's note--the listing is worth taking a look at, to see the data posted.] I hope that many dairies will follow behind us and do the same - it is a GREAT organization, founded by Mark McAfee, who is the biggest advocate for raw milk in North America, if not worldwide. I will be telling our story about the listing process (took all summer!) at the Weston Price convention in a couple weeks. Just a few of many benefits of being listed -- a group to be accountable to, a huge support network to deal with issues, and a means to provide you with the safest raw milk in the state.
The high and low this week involved receiving an email Monday morning with my product liability insurance premium - $10,000 per year. What a bombshell - premiums have been running about $1,000 per year until this year when carriers began announcing they would not be renewing current policies in Oregon. After submitting our application to many wholesalers over the last few weeks, this was the only one not declined, and just by virtue of it being $10,000 seems like they are in essence declining it.
Since I'm a part of this valuable organization, RAWMI, I immediately called Mark McAfee. He went into high speed Monday and spent most of the day emailing, conference calling with the CEO of at least one Insurance Co., working with my agent locally, had stats and explanations flying all around the country about why a dairy like ours is a much lower risk than a raw milk dairy that is not testing regularly or required to have any basic standards whatsoever. He battled for us all week. Yesterday my agent responded that he had received a quote for $750 per year and had 2 more on the way from other carriers. So I went from a cost-prohibitive $10,000 per year that doesn't make sense to even be in business to pay, to a manageable $750 that offers our farm and our customers protection.
The value of a "Listing" by the Raw Milk Institute just increased 100 fold in my mind. Because they are a 501c3 non-profit corp. they cannot ask for membership fees, so they do advise a $500 donation for the "Listing" opportunity. This $500 is intended to come from the consumers of raw milk making tax deductible donations to cover this cost. Since we are the first dairy listed we are still getting things in place and I have not made you aware of this donation. Beginning today, there will be a box in the milk pickup area for you to donate. I have 100 customers, so if everyone donated $5 each year we would reach the $500 with not much effort. After my emotionally challenging week and the immediate response of Mark to remedy the problem, this seems like the right timing to make you aware of this, and the fee is insignificant in comparison to the support we receive in return.
Champoeg Creamery will match any donations received up to $500 per year - being "Listed" is this valuable to us. There are some of you who will find the $5 a hardship and if so, please do not feel obligated in the least and you don't even need to mention it to me or explain in any way. I know we will easily reach this reasonable amount.
Thank you for your continued support and business. I am humbled by your continued dedication, loyalty, patronage and trust. Without you and your support, we would not be in business providing you with the safest milk in Oregon.
Warm Regards,
Charlotte
--
Charlotte Smith
Champoeg Creamery
This site's mission is to provide news and analysis about food rights and raw milk. Increasingly, our access to privately available food is under attack by government and industry forces that seek to impose their choices on us. The Complete Patient seeks to provide up-to-date information and encourage the development of community to maintain traditional food acquisition options.
All of the credit goes to Charlotte...none of those words are mine or RAWMI's. These are words and values from her heart.
She has been a pleasure to work with because she has the right ethical DNA to start with. She cares about safety and clean raw milk. RAWMI chose Champoeg Creamery to be the first LISTED dairyperson because of this DNA. She is a leader and a teacher with a very deep and personal raw milk story. All Charlotte needed was a framework to display her hard work. RAWMI provides that frame work and support system and infrastructure.
After the Weston A Price conference and after everyone gets to meet Charlotte ( she will be at the RAWMI booth and will be speaking as part of my presentation about RAWMI ) and hear her LISTING story...we will then work on LISTING additional dairymen.
RAWMI is only as good as the LISTED dairymen. Charlotte is the Cream of Raw Milk Dairymen and we are so proud of her. The entire Board of Directors and RAWMI Executive Advisory Board congratulates Champoeg Creamery on their demonstrated ethics and high standards.
By this time next year...we hope that RAWMI has LISTED another 10 dairymen and that all of them rise to the standards shown by Charlotte. In the final assessment....RAWMI LISTING is only as good as the Dairyman. Not one bit better. All praise to the dairyman.
All the best,
Mark and the RAWMI team.
Mark
So proud of Charlotte, and especially of the fact that RawMI seems to, in its inception, have broken the patriarchal stronghold on the traditionally male role of managing and running a dairy farm. Mitt Romney's "binders full of women" was just paying lipservice!!! Now THIS is what a progressive dairy farming organization looks like!
One fringe benefit for farms who join the RawMI fold: pro-bono and reduced-cost professional advice and consultations on cheese making and milk fermentation.
When we can all recover from the shock of believing that the FDA is a criminal organization....then it is much easier to imagine and accept the fact that criminals perpetuate crimes.
John Sheehan is a criminal. Nothing he does or that the FDA does shocks me anymore. I have personally experienced the crimes of the FDA and now I have a much better appreciation for how to handle a crime syndicate family.
Remember...raw milk is love and this is war. Simple as that.
Has RAWMI or other dairy farmers stopped and asked why would insurance companies ask for a $10,000 liability policy? What are the true liabilities of a raw milk dairy farmer? Are you protecting yourself, your farm, your business against a customer tripping and breaking their leg? If that is your liability then yes, a $10,000 policy per year seems quite high. What if the recent change in providing liability insurance is actually because the truth about the real liability of real milk is starting to be recognized and it is a lot more than a broken leg and trip to the Emergency room?
My daughter was sickened with raw milk this year. Her medical bills total over a million dollars in the past seven months. I can write about the emotional and physical side of how raw milk has forever changed her life and ours but that is for another time. Let’s talk about the financial liability of raw milk. OVER A MILLION DOLLAR IN CLAIMS FOR ONE LITTLE TWO YEAR OLD GIRL. Who has labs every two weeks because of kidneys and are billed at $1,000 each lab drawl. Physical, occupational and speech therapy at $200 a session. Four specialists she sees – endocrine, nephrologist, neurology and physicists. Orthotics that cost $2,000 cause maybe with them she will learn to walk again. Cost that will continue for her lifetime.
She was one of 20 sicken. One of four who were hospitalized with hemolytic uremic syndrome. Though I can’t tell you the medical cost of all four kids hospitalized I am guessing that is at over 3 million dollars. Where was RAWMI when my daughter got sick? Where was the rest of the raw milk community to help us?
There is a real financial risk to raw milk. I hope that the liability policies you are putting into place will protect yourself and your business but most importantly the littlest customers who unfortunately will be the ones forever impacted if something as devastating as what happened to my daughter happened to theirs.
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Features/Insuring-Your-Health/2012/ER-co...
Insurance companies are in the business of making money. Be careful if you have a couple glasses of booze and trip, they don't have to pay for your healthcare. There may also be a clause in your policy that states they don't have to pay if you eat contaminated foods....
http://www.aafp.org/fpm/2002/1000/p47.html Back in 2002 family doctors paid @$14000 per year and they don't make the big $$$- most make less than $200000/yr. Another reason why the amount of family doctors are dwindling.
$200 per session is price gouging. Your daughter sees a physicists?
My son saw an infectious disease specialist twice, each time was for less than 5 min and the bill came to $600, that was almost 25 yrs ago. The man did nothing.
http://www.kendallturner.com/farms/Dairy.aspx <~~ has policy for raw milk sales...
Who owns the insurance companies?
I pay extra home owners insurance because I own dogs. If my car insurance only pays up to $100000 per injury per accident, who pays for costs over the $100000?
http://www.foodliabilitylaw.com/tags/liability/ You an sue anyone for anything....... even the peanut corp of America had inadequate insurance...
"People who have health insurance, especially good insurance with no cap, have some level of security if they get sick from any risk source, accident, etc. People who don’t have health insurance perhaps have to weigh a different risk-benefit analysis. But those are personal choices we all make, whether to have health insurance (or a job that offers it), and what risks to take in life."
People become ill from many sources; petting zoos,pools, foods-some types more than others,etc. Some sue for various reasons; easy money, cover health costs, revenge money, etc.
It appears, per the cdc estimates on food borne illnesses, most don't sue, why is that? Could it be a combination of substandard heath care? unknown cause? so many variables.. Was it obvious where the contamination came from? Was the company a repeat offender? like the peanut factories? ground beef factories? Were the companies negligent? Unfortunately, in lawsuits, lawyers are often able to make companies look negligent no matter what.
As a student nurse, I had the opportunity to watch a malpractice suit. The lawyer made the nurse "look" negligent. When we returned to class, we researched standards of practice, and found that the nurse followed those standards, yet the lawyer made her appear that she hadn't- and it wasn't her that was being sued.
If you drive a car, you must have insurance, contractors must be licensed and insured. So why shouldn’t anyone who produces food for sale to the general public?
"I also think it’s very important to distinguish cow-share operations from licensed, state-inspected dairies. In a cow-share, everyone is going in with eyes-wide-open, choosing to participate, and to confirm they trust whomever is doing the milking, storage, etc. All participants are taking responsibility. That is much different from buying retail from a licensed dairy. Raw dairy requires hygiene to be much more stringent than on large-scale dairies that sell through pasteurized channels."
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:dwxGNxj6jBUJ:www.farmagentres...
Jillyb -- Thank you for posting. I was devastated when I heard about your daughter. I think it would be an excellent role for RAWMI or WAPF to respond to cases like yours when there is no liability coverage. Up until now, there has been no focus on planning for outbreaks and, as a result, there is no provision for extreme cases. OPDC and WAPF have big mailing lists they could leverage in situations like yours. Keep us posted on your daughter's progress.
Amanda
Thank you Amanda I appreicate your concern. I was amazed how when a farmers gets jailed apart of food freedom it is at the center of the issue for WAPF but when a child gets sick it is pushed under the rug.
I'm very sorry for the agony of your child's illness, but realize that children also can get very sick from pasteurized milk. I'd also point out problems with the medical profession that is so focused on drug treatments that they refuse to consider other approaches. Read the book, "Curing the Incurable," to see how some doctors are helping very sick people overcome very serious infections with a remarkably straightforward and effective nutritional approach. It is a crime that conventional medicine refuses to seriously research and utilize such methods. As a health professional, now retired, I'm well aware of how we become brainwashed into considering anything unconventional as fraudulent, which means I've changed my tone since I retired. Another good, revealing book - "Trust Us, We're Experts!"
"Where was RAWMI when my daughter got sick? Where was the rest of the raw milk community to help us?"
I think this is an important question that the raw milk community simply wants to deny. Mary Martin went through Sally Fallon, the WAPF leader, and Mark McAfee, owner of OPDC, lying over and over again about the culpability of raw milk in his illness. It's been hashed out here over and over again...raw milk supporters and providers blaming the victims by saying that their immunity just wasn't up to snuff. You know, that if they were healthy enough they should have been able to handle E.COLI 0157-H7. In your case, you know the unfortunate truth...a two year old's immune system is no match for this modern e.coli.
I am interested in seeing how the long time posters here respond to you. Are they going to attack you, like they did Mary? Or are they going to be gracious?
You are brave for posting here and I hope nothing but the best for you and your daughter and your family, as well as the 19 other sickened people from the Oregon outbreak.
Thank you Kristen. I couldn't not respond anymore. I am tired of being quiet and my daughter story not being told.
If you feel up to it, you can find me on Facebook and I can post your story on my blog, FarmMuckraker. I think your voice needs to be heard. Kristen Papac
Jillyb, your ideas are ridiculous. There are children that have gone camping and been stung by a bee, and died, or so it is often claimed. Even if true, that gives no one the right to force parents to keep their kids confined indoors, or force adults to be confined indoors the rest of their lives. Being outdoors, getting sunlight and fresh air, being invigorated by playing, living your life... is going to produce a much healthier population, OVERALL. Anyone who denies this is insane.
Americans suffer epidemic levels of disease today, that have everything to do with severe mineral deficiency, particularly calcium. Anyone with tooth decay has severe calcium deficiency. This can lead to cancer, ms, diabetes, and a million other severe conditions. No one has a right to stop people from drinking a natural food that has been used for thousands of years to provide people with good health. There is nothing better than raw milk to restore calcium deficiency. Go look into this directly.
Why your child's immune system didn't function properly, why some people get hit by lightning, why some people have had allergic reactions to penicillin and died... these are good questions. But you need to open your eyes and stop trying to harm the millions of people that OVERALL, will GREATLY BENEFIT from raw milk.
Looking at all the "modern" medical treatments you are using, I'd say you are doing way more harm than good. The modern medical establishment is one of the most corrupt things you can imagine, even though the typical establishment trained doctor is well intentioned.
I think your time would be much better spent trying to get to the real cause of your child's problems. I could give you a lot of ideas but I doubt your interested, you seem totally sold on the medical cartel's version of reality.
Your weird case, even if it really had anything to do with milk, has to be balanced against the millions of cases of serious disease prevented or healed by raw milk.
I just reread jillyb's story here. Am I the only one in this forum that senses there's something very very wrong with the story? At a time when people are organizing to try to restore a most basic right, to be able to consume the ancient food known as milk, in its natural form, now here's this story of a woman's child being saddled with a million different medical problems from drinking a glass of milk. It just looks a little too convenient for the govt's anti milk crusade, don't you think? What's really going on here??
If I had to bet, I'd say what we are seeing here is some kind of govt dirty trick campaign. One possibily of various is, the govt intentionally made children sick including hers. If that sounds fartetched to you, maybe you're not aware that the govt is a group that likes to do things like drop bombs on children in other countries to make sure the locals don't get their hands on oil, and make up elaborate stories about weapons of mass destruction that don't really exist... and on and on and on...
Anyone who thinks what i'm saying here is extreme, I'd suggest you take a look at the book, Inventing the Aids Virus, read the reviews on amazon dot com. This might blow your mind. This book is written by a world reknowned retrovirolgist. The foreward is written by Nobel Prize winning scientist, Dr Kary Mullis, inventor of the polymerase chain reaction technique. You medical people here must be familiar with this, PCR, it's what hospitals use to determine the presense of viruses. Mullis recieved the Nobel Prize for inventing it. Anyway, in the foreward, he agrees with Duesberg that it's impossible for hiv to be the real cause of "Aids". What the govt pulled here is truly mind blowing. The original aids victims were all heavy users of a new type of nitrate drug, "poppers", use mainly by young gays. These drugs have been shown to wreck the immune system. The govt ignored this little detail and declared that "aids" must be caused by sex and that these guys were all having sex with each other... Then the govt claims they have found the culpirt, hiv, and they start testing and "treating" people with AZT, a drug that stops the body from being able produce new cells. So with this "treatment", the patient turns into a skeleton and dies. Famous people like Arhur Ashe were "treated" in this way and predictably turned into a skeleton and died... and then the story goes from there. Read the book reviews, and be seated while you do, so you don't fall over. This is the govt we are dealing with:
http://www.amazon.com/Inventing-AIDS-Virus-Peter-Duesberg/dp/0895263998/...
Tom,
There are even better, and clearer, examples of the gov't's malfeasance towards both citizens and non-citizens alike, like infecting people with STDs and other diseases, among a million crimes from our benevolent overlords whom many in this forum seem bent on empowering all the further so that we can be "further protected..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment (Us citizens)
foreigners, http://morallowground.com/2011/03/15/guatemalans-intentionally-infected-...
And for others,
http://www.ranker.com/list/the-13-most-evil-u-s-government-experiments-o...
But of course, they should be trusted, especially in how they handle the data around raw milk... oh wait... nope, can't trust them there either, as David and others have already shown they are a boat load of liars.
He who trades safety/security for liberty will end up having neither... nor good health for themselves or their kids.
John, last time I checked it was your camp who seems bent on empowering one of the worst and most abusive branches of gov't: THE POLICE.
If it isn't Rand Paul calling for FBI-led inspections of food facilities, then you are going around trying to empower the county sheriffs at the expense of competent public health professionals. At first I thought that perhaps you'd forgotten about all of the horrific things which county sheriffs did in the old South (you know... lynchings, cross burnings, enforcing segregation, etc, etc) but then I remembered that Ron Paul supporters are mostly closetted white supremecists (a few who are openly so).
Its not that you've forgotten about all of the atrocities which the FBI and County Sheriff's have committed, its that you are just blind to then because of your racist petit-bourgeois biases.
Sorry John, but public health agencies can't hold a candle to the FBI or to County Sheriff when it comes to the atrocities committed and the civil liberties destroyed. If you are going to engage in generalized political rants against the government, at least get your priorities straight.
please excuse the typos in the above posting.
The below book is an excellent expose on the reasons why police forces are nothing more than a way to preserve oppression, inequality, and privilege:
http://www.powells.com/biblio/9781932360431
Not surprising, since the very core agenda of John M's style of "libertarianism" is the preservation of white middle-class privilege and the violent "constitutional Republic" which creates that economic inequality.
JohnM, one thing that most don't realize is that the govt specializes in dirty tricks. They use thousands and thousands of agents, they can recruit anyone, and it would be illegal for the person to ever admit it. It's been posted in this forum, "formal group consensus" info, and one of the justifications for this idea is to protect your group from govt infiltrators. All the well meaning groups of the 60s were infiltrated. Anyone who's been involved with good causes knows you always have to be paying attention for govt dirty tricks. They are capable of anything. Seeing these posts in this forum, about a glass of sour milk causing medical bills in the millions of dollars... it's pretty obvious to me who's at work here, one way or the other.
yes, Tom, govt agents got on here and lied about a two year old being sickened and getting a million dollar hospital bill just like the aliens created Hurricane Sandy to destroy New York. Um, false and false. Children are sickened every year from e.coli 0157:H7 just like the weather keeps getting more extreme every year because we, HOMO SAPIENS, keep F-ING with NATURE. Got it?
There is no going back, not with the weather, and not with raw milk. That is reality. It's high time to stop denying and blaming, and to come up with real solutions.
Humans are indeed screwing around with nature. Yet the effect our activity has on both human health and the weather is debatable depending on personal bias and/or scientific perspective.
Pointing the finger at organisms as the primary cause of illness and at human activity as the primary reason for global warming as if the matter has been settled impleads our ability to achieve a truly holistic solution.
Both issues are complex and adopting a narrow approach and focus on them is counterproductive. To suggest that “there is no going back” is a rather defeatist and cynical attitude to take.
Ken
Note, I said it is time to come up with solutions.
Yes, that was poorly worded. Literally speaking there is “no going back”, however failing to re-examine and consider implementing past practices such as the small family farm scenario would be a mistake and impede a real solution?
Ken
yeah, good point Kristen, or whoever you are. Govt agents would never lie, or intentionally harm people. Read my other posts here and stop insulting everyone's intellingence.
Re spending a MILLION DOLLARS ostensibly to help ONE child, my God! You know how many thousands and thousands of kids you could help with that kind of money?
And the irony is, real medical care, in general, is free or inexpensive. For example, in the old days, a child would have been breast fed, immunizing them against all kinds of things. Most kids today aren't. If a child did get infected, the classic way to help would be to "starve a fever", ie fast. By starving out the intruder, and letting the body detox naturally, good health is restored. There is a mountain load of evidence for simple water fasting curing all kinds of "Incurable" and serious disease. But when a child in this system is "rushed off to the hospital", do you think the doctors are going to use an ancient tried and tested method like fasting? Guess again. They have been trained to do everything BUT work with the natural healing ability of the body. They will start flooding the sick child with all kinds of weired patented drugs and other assaults on the little person's system. God knows how this will create complications instead of healing. These children that have been alledged to have gotten sick by drinking real milk, even for the sake of argument saying that is what really happened, would typically have healed comletely using basic methods such as described here, and without using ONE MILLION DOLLARS.
You people that come to this forum attacking ancient health giving foods like real milk, that protect and nourish us in so many ways and have stood the test of time, you are truly doing evil. whether you work for the govt, whether your are simply being used by them. Hope you look in the mirror and make the change someday.
"You people that come to this forum attacking ancient health giving foods like real milk, that protect and nourish us in so many ways and have stood the test of time, you are truly doing evil. whether you work for the govt, whether your are simply being used by them. Hope you look in the mirror and make the change someday."
Thanks for the devil horns, Tom. I'll wear them with pride.
People. do not be fooled by comments posted by Kristen P, Mary McGonigle, jillyb, and others posting their nonsense in this forum (and their cutsy little pictures). Good people, go look into "Operation Chaos" CIA, and you'll get the idea how the govt really operates. The CIA has a long ugly history of dirty trick campaigns to derail any kinds of domestic grassroots movements where people try to help themselves and others. The classic way they try to derail the right to eat natural ancient food is fear mongering using various stunts and agents, witting and unwitting.
It's clear as day to me now, rereading posts here, that these "recent ecoli outbreaks" are a stunt the govt is pulling. Whether using actresses, whether intentionally infecting little people, whether using people that have been subjected to mind control techniques... the more you look into the CiA the uglier it gets.
To the good people in this forum who want to be able to eat real food, no need to dwell on the deviousness of the govt, but you should be familiar with their history and modus operandi.
NONE of my relatives have ever died from ecoli or anything like that, and NO ONE else I've ever known, even with all the foods they've eaten over the years.... But LOTS of my relatives have SEVERE ILLNESS such as my mom's CANCER when in her 50s, her sister same CANCER story, her sister's husband, DIABETES and no teeth, my mother's brother with PROSTATE CANCER in his 60s, his wife with MS since her 40s, my other aunt has had MS since her 50s, my dad had a severe HEART ATTACK in his 50s, his sister just had a QUINTUPLE BYPASS...
These are REAL WORLD diseases that are EPIDEMIC today. Most of this illness could have been prevented or healed with a change in diet, and if I could only change one food for them, it would be RAW MILK. But they are afraid of drinking it, because of nonsense that comes from people like jillyb, mary mcgonigle, kristen p, etc.
Farmers, you should not be trying to bend over backwards to appease this fear mongering about raw milk. What was reasonable for a farmer to do 100 years ago should be reasonable today. People should arm themselves with real world evidence, such as the society in the Swiss alps, described in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, where they drank tons of raw dairy and had such good health, their village had no need not only for a dentist by for a doctor.
While these recent "ecoli outbreaks" are obviously govt stunts to attack real farmers, there are actually unsafe farming practises that people might crusade against, it's called factory farming, gmos, doping animals with drugs, animal cruelty, toxic pesticides and herbicides, etc.
There might actually be things like ecoli that might happen once in a blue moon using natural farming, just like once in a blue moon someone gets hit by lightning. But these things are so rare in natural societies we can round it off to zero. No one should be forcing parents to strap lightning rod devices onto their kids head to protect them from lightnig, with more and more "standards" imposed on the parents, to keep testing the lighting rods. Let's stop being insane, let's see thru the evil people that come to this forum, that want to harm children by preventing them from eating real foods.
tommculhane, no words for your response the this mother and her child. Compassion is missing from your soul.
Mary, when a young woman testified in front of the Senate just before the first Iraq war, senators felt compassion for her. She said she worked in a Kuwaiti hospital, and told how when Iraqi soldiers invaded the country, they entered the hospital and took babies out of incubators and threw them on the floor. She broke down crying repeatedly. This testimony was used to launch that war that murdered and crippled for life God knows how many people. Later it was learned the girl was a hired actress. In the next Iraq war, this same group that arranged for this girl to testify was involved yet again in giving the govt information. As far as I know no one was ever prosecuted or imprisoned for this. This is business as usual for the govt and the forces hooked in with it. I'm sorry you are so naive. Ths first question that comes to my mind, when I see a person post in this forum, saying they incurred medical expenses of over a million dollars for giving a child a glass of sour milk, is, is this the real story.
People, please read those book reviews I've cited.
Jillyb, I read about your daughter’s illness in the news and also listened to the radio show you spoke on sharing your daughter’s horrendous story. You have been through hell and your daughter is left damaged. I’m not sure people who blog here know she had a stroke which left her partially paralyzed, along with portions of her colon being removed. Of course she also suffered the typical kidney issues children who develop HUS are challenged with. I am so sorry for everything you have suffered through…..and all because you thought raw milk was a healthier choice for your family.
Like you, my child also became ill after drinking contaminated raw milk. I’ve been blogging here for over 5 years maintaining the “victim’s voice”. Someone has to speak out for the children who have become ill. It is a tough crowd. Most here want access to raw milk without regulations—just like the operation you got your milk from.
For those of us who live in wealthy nations I suppose insurance is necessary in order to provide a certain level of security. That being said however, the insurance industry’s discriminatory preference for the wealthy and wealthy nations is a testimony to its greed driven nature.
“Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed” Gandhi
http://www.countdown.org/end_articles/fam_kofi_annans_astonishing_facts.htm
North Americans spend an obscene amount on healthcare relative to the rest of the world yet the percentage of our income spent on food ranks the lowest in the world.
Ken
I certainly agree with you about the insurance industry Ken. But I don't think the greed of the insurance industry (particularily as it regards healthcare) excuses negligence on the part of milk producers who wish to sell raw milk to the general public or through a (so-called) "private club" of consumers whose only involvement in the operations of the farm is symbolic at best.
Slyvia... I completely disagree with the last paragraph you posted above, trying to contrast cow-shares to state-licenses and inspected dairys. Having consumers who go to the farm with "eyes wide open" may make the consumers feel good about the choice they are making. But it doesn't tell us anything about the safety or cleanliness of the milk.
You need to run laboratory tests on the raw milk to actually determine how hygienic the farm's practices actually are, regardless of whether the farm sells through a cowshare or through a (so-called) "public" channel.
Sorry, I spelled your name wrong Sylvia. Typo
Bill,
Perhaps YOU require lab tests and state inspections and perhaps YOU feel there is no difference between commercial and private cow shares, many do not feel or believe as you do.
I still feel sad for those who died a few years ago after consuming pasteurized milk. All that testing and boiling and they still got ill and some died. It didn't help those people.
If I was to buy a burger from a fast food place, what are the chances that it (that individual burger meat or produce on it) was individually inspected? Close to nil. The inspection and testing system in the US is a farce. http://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls/default.htm The foods are already contaminated and hit the public and the public isn't notified till long after.
Most people don't go to the doctors with short lasting diarrhea/vomiting, so any food poisoning isn't noted by the health care community, and when you go to the ER, many times you are sent home with a DX of intestinal "virus". They don't always test your poop.
Testing is not the end all-be all of safe foods. I still believe that Amanda's list on what to ask and what to look for has been the best place to start when searching for any type of foods, not just raw milk.
I wonder if those farmers who do the CSA boxes have insurance? If you haven't seen the farm or talked to the farmers/workers you have no clue to how your food is handled or grown, etc.
There is no 100% safe system.
"There is no 100% safe system"
I agree with you Sylvia, but that does not excuse recklessness and negligence.
To reject scientific methods of evaluating milk cleanliness in favor of a "scratch and sniff" system is ill-advised in my opinion. Not that there is anything wrong with "scratch and sniff." As an artisan cheese maker, I have a profound appreciation for the subjective and aesthetic characteristics of cheese and of raw milk. But these subjective aesthetic evaluations are not a substitute for science, especially when the lives on young children are in your hands.
And frankly, I don't care whether the state inspects and tests the milk, or if it is some non-profit org such as RawMI that does the testing and licensing. In fact, even in the conventional dairy industry, most inspections of dairy farms and testing of milk are done privately by the milk processors and their fieldmen. The state inspectors play a rather minor role, and just make sure that the processors are doing their job of inspecting the dairy farms and testing the milk quality.
But, as you say, no system is 100% safe. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make our system as safe as possible.
Providing financial security in exchange for a healthy and “safe” product is all well and good. Of course the insurance company is out to make a buck and if that enterprising process indeed ensures safety of the product and those who wish to consume that product are comfortable with such a process then so be it.
There is however consumers and producers out there who may take a different approach to healthy living and aught to be entitled to do so despite the systems controlling, self-righteous, dogmatic rant.
Ken
I agree Ken.
You are right, Ken. Those who don't want to obtain their raw milk through commercial channels (of which cow-shares are a subset) should the option to either work as an of a dairy farm or to "live off the land" and milk their own animals.
Redistribute the land! Forty acres and a cow for all who want it!
'scuse the typo again.
should have the option to work as an employee of a dairy farm or "live off the land"...
"that does not excuse recklessness and negligence"
Many people don't need nor require "scientific methods" for evaluating their milk and that does NOT make them reckless nor negligent. Science has been proven wrong on many levels.
Sylvia, I think you misunderstand what I am saying.
PRODUCERS who make their living selling raw milk (be it to a processor or directly to consumers) and do not use scientific methods for evaluating milk quality are most certainly negligent and reckless.
I have no qualms calling these people out on their recklessness and negilgence -- negligence which they rationalize to themselves via their ridiculous "libertarian" ideology. It is unfortunate that the producers in the raw milk movement who engage in this recklessness will ruin the market for the responsible producers when they cause serious outbreaks, like the one that happened in Oregon earlier this year, or the Hartmann outbreaks of 2010.
As for the consumers, well, I wouldn't expect the average raw milk consumer to understand some of the finer details of milk hygiene and microbiology. Please leave that work to those of us who are trained professionals.
"Please leave that work to those of us who are trained professionals."
OMG How bloody condescending of you.
Tyranny of the experts... how democratic.
Hi John,
I'd be happy to teach anyone who is interested the art of cheesemaking, and turn them into a professional cheese maker. If you don't have a lot of money, I can teach you at reduced cost or free. You know... from each according to ability, to each according to need.
But a few qualifiers here -- it will take time and work to gain those professional skills. Artisan cheese making is a highly refined profession that can take years and decades to master. And remember -- cheese making is 90% cleaning, 10% making cheese.
Its not a tyranny of experts I advocate, just a recognition of people's particular areas of skill and expertise. As I said, I don't expect the average raw milk consumer to understand the finer details of milk microbiology and hygiene. That's why there are some of us who do have those skills, and we try to put our skills into service of the larger cause.
Your individualist attitude is so destructive to social fabric of a well-organized democratic society, John. The Hobbessian "war of all against all" is just so deeply ingrained in your "libertarian" ideology, isn't it?
" Cheese making is 90% cleaning and 10% making cheese."
I think you left out something there. Doesn't the cheese reflect the quality of the milk which is a result of the health of the cow which is all about what the cow eats? Excellent quality milk is the first requirement to making excellent cheese. How do you find the milk that you use for cheese making? What are your standards for the milk?
I agree there is a lot of plain old dish washing involved,but number one will always be what the cow eats and how the cow is cared for.I have yet to see a large dairy farm that understands the importance of these two things. I have seen several micro dairies that do understand this. RAWMI standards mean nothing if they don't recognize and stress this.
miguel
Absolutely, Miguel. The cheese making process begins in the pastures, and ends on the consumer's cheese tray. Hopefully for desert (I'd rather avoid the American tradition of eating cheese as an appetizer... but sometimes there is no point in arguing with people who want it that way)
I was talking specifically about cheese making in the narrowest sense of the term, as the job of tranforming milk into curd. And yes, it is 90% cleaning, 10% making cheese. Creamery hygiene is of the utmost importance.
Also, I suppose it depends how you define "large dairy farm." I know of several farms that would probably be considered large by your standards (over 100 head of milking cows) who certainly understand this.
sorry about the typos in the above post.
Also, Miguel, my standards for milk are pretty high. The cows diet should be at least 80% pasture during the grazing season, if not more. Soil mineralization is important, as is organic certification. And of course, the hygienic quality of the milk is very important when making raw milk cheese, especially of the variety I focus on (soft and semi-soft ripened, French-style).
A well-managed medium-sized dairy farm (30-100 cows) should be able to consistently test below 10,000 cfu/mL Standard Plate Count and below 10 cfu/mL coliform.
Large often means more stress on the cow.Are you familiar with research done that says that a cow can learn to recognize and remember about 40 or 50 different other cows? Every time a cow encounters a strange cow there is a stress. In a herd bigger than 40 or 50 cows the stress is coming every day, all day long. Cows also respond to touch positively.How many dairies of 100 cows milk those cows by hand?
What I am saying is that micro dairies at least have the possibility of producing excellent quality milk.Large dairies do not have the options that these micro dairies do have. Beyond 20 or 30 cows, given the space, the cows would naturally form into separate herds.
miguel
Yes, miguel, this is why we need to breakup the factory farms and redistribute the land. Wisconsin used to have an average dairy farm size of about 40-50 cows. Today the average farm size is slightly over 100. Though we still have the most family-run dairy farms of any state in the US, we are losing our progressive dairy farming traditions to corporate consolidation.
The farm where I have been sourcing my milk from has about 40 cows.
"corporate consolidation" is nothing new ... the anti-christs who seized power in Russia in 1917 enforced it at gunpoint. Towards the end of that tragic, 70 year experiment wherein Mister Anderson's theories were put into practice, the nation was being fed off two percent of the landbase, managed by citizens on personal holdings. While the rest of the country was given over to agricultural corporations mostly farming grains / materials going to produce alcohol.
for a method as to how to go about breaking up the factory farms, one model would be = how things fell out in his Soviet paradise. My point being : we don't have to re-live that nightmare ... we must do what we can to repudiate the domestic enemies of the Republic, even as the dark night is falling
There is nothing I’d like better then to see the revival of the small family farm. I dislike however this idea of “redistribution”, which suggest the initial seizing of property by government. History has shown that such a process is oppressive and chaotic for it would be open to abuse by unscrupulous government officials.
Tax incentives that encourage small farms, local abattoirs and cheese factories etc. coupled with a slackening off of environmental restriction that are burdensome and inapplicable to small organic farms would be a good place to start. Of course there would also need to be enough individuals willing to take on such ventures and in order to encourage them to do so governments would need to abandon their cheap food policies and encourage sustainable market pricing.
Ken
Ken,
You ignore the long history of working people "redistributing" wealth on our own.
Capitalism, usury, and (so-called) "free-markets" are simply ways of cheating us out of that which we create through our labor. When we band together as one, we have the power to reclaim from the capitalist class the wealth which we have created.
History is full of example of working people rising up against our oppressors, and trying to reclaim what is rightfully ours. No government is neccessary, in fact, most often it is done in opposition to the police and military (who are really just guardians of the ruling class)
I am aware that history is full of examples of working people rising up against their oppressors. Unfortunately and unless my ignorance fails me these upheavals at least initially were violent in nature whereby the oppressed assumed control of the country or at least a portion of it. Democracy may have brought about a certain amount of civility to the process. When it comes to redistribution of land however by whatever political system is in place the process has a tendency to be corrupted by greed (vice) and thus becomes oppressive and chaotic.
Ken
The fat profile of milk is quite different between Organic cows on pasture supplemented with a little grain than those that were fed only pasture on a bio dynamic farm.In research done by Ton Baars It was found that the fat profile of cows supplemented with a small amount of grain was no different than the fat profile of milk from conventional confined cows. It is the chlorophyll in what they eat that contributes to the fat profile.This is where a diverse plant profile in the pasture leads to a diverse fatty acid profile in the milk. The broad diversity of fatty acids in the rumen results in a very diverse profile of bacteria contributing to more efficient digestion and selecting for a safer bacteria profile in the gut. Listen to Jerry Brunetti's 2011 presentation at the London WAPF conference.
How do you make soft ripened cheeses from raw milk? Mine get ready much too soon to fit into the 60 day rule.
miguel
Science and practice, Miguel. It takes a lot of work and a lot of skill to make soft-ripened cheese that can age beyond 60 days. There is a reason why I leave the job of milking cows to professionals.
If you want to learn how to make world-class artisan cheese, you'll need to come work with me in Wisconsin.
http://www.culturecheesemag.com/cheese_iq/fall_2011/coming_clean_on_list...
"culture: Do you consider the FDA’s 60-day aging rule for cheese one of those safety interventions?"
"CD: We’ve been doing a lot of research regarding the part of the regulation that says either cheesemakers can use pasteurized milk for cheesemaking or they must hold the cheese for 60 days of aging if the milk used is raw. The 60-day aging rule was really intended to be applied to cheeses that as they age become hostile to microbial pathogens—like cheddar and hard-ripened ones. Now with all the artisan cheese being produced in the United States, cheesemakers must apply the 60-day rule to such cheeses as soft-ripened cheeses that were never designed to use aging to achieve safety. So in a Camembert, for example, holding that cheese for 60 days actually increases its health risk substantially. If you think about France, where they sell Camembert or Brie at 30 days, there’s a much lower risk of Listeria contamination and growth in their soft-ripened cheese. In fact, in France you can’t even sell an AOC Camembert beyond 59 days because the risk is considered to be so great."
"So even though the FDA applies the 60-day rule to raw milk soft-ripened cheeses, our research indicates that it’s not good practice to enforce that. The agency is, however, in the process of doing a soft-cheese reassessment. So the regulations are likely to change. "
So Bill,
It seems that soft ripened cheese made from raw milk aged 30 days is actually safer to eat than soft ripened cheese aged 60 days. Your faith in "professionals" is astounding.They are just as likely to be wrong as anyone else. I guess it is in your interest to make things seem complicated that way you can sell information instead of cheese.
miguel
Hi miguel,
I am well aware that soft-ripened cheeses are at increased risk of listeria growth as the cheeses ages beyond 30 days. This only reinforces the need to have rigerous hygiene practices, to prevent listeria contamination to begin with.
Hopefully, in time, we can get rid of the 60 day rule and replace it with a HACCP-type program that manages risk and involves more testing. 60 days is an arbtirary number. But for now, I have no choice but to live with it. And honestly, having to cope with the 60 day rule has made me a better cheese maker.
It makes perfect sense to me to learn how to make "french style soft ripened cheeses" the way that they are made in France. The beauty of the informal economy is that you can work with nature,learn from many sources,practice on a small scale and grow if it makes sense to grow.People who are working at something they enjoy are not the problem. It is people who are in it for the money that aren't paying attention to quality and safety. The formal economy forces people to be in it for the money.That is what that economy is all about.
3/4 of the population of the world makes a living informally,through activities that are not taxed or regulated.This is normal in most countries of the world. They are not responsible to a bureaucracy,they are responsible to their families and neighbors.
miguel
Miguel, I don't think you completely appreciate the meaning of *terroir.* We do not live in pre-modern France. We live in 21st century America. This cultural context is an integral part of our *terroir.* I only say "French-style" because my cheese are inspired by French cheeses, but are nonetheless an expression of my unique Wisconsin *terroir*
They state that, “Aromatic Alpine cheese has at least as much individual character as the Alpine cheese maker that produces it. Even the milk from each individual region has its own typical, aromatic taste. This comes from the strong Alpine herbs that grow differently in each area. The wood fire over which the raw milk is generally heated up also gives varying hints to the taste of an Alpine cheese, as does the particular style of the Alpine cheese maker who has produced it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxNCJC8J6a0
I saw porcelain, aluminum, copper and tin utensils. No stainless steel except for maybe one small bucket.
Notice how he taste tests the curd and dumps the remainder back into the kettle.
Ken
Hi Ken,
Alpine cheeses are low-moisture and long-aged, which dramatically lowers the risk factors associated with them, when compared to fresh fluid milk or soft-ripened cheeses. Also, it is typical for some of the cream to be skimmed from the milk in an Alpine cheese, because 1) the very fine curds which must be cut for Alpine cheeses will cause more of the butterfat to be lost to the whey anyways, and 2) partial skimming makes a cheese that will age longer, since high-fat cheese tends to go rancid more quickly. The skimmed cream is typically cultured and churned into butter which is eaten locally and immediately.
The curd in an Alpine cheese is traditionaly cooked to above 115F, and sometimes as high as 125F, which would make many of the raw food purists in this movement cringe. Yet, this is the traditional practice used by Helvetic mountaineers who practice transhumance, of the sort that Weston A Price studied in his travels.
The observant viewer of that video will notice how the cheese maker uses boiling water to sterilize the pot and porcelain jar which he uses for his whey starter and rennet, at about 3:00. Yes, even old-fashioned cheeses makers had to practice rigerous hygiene, especially for their starter cultures.
Bill
You state above that the 60 day rule is arbitrary, which is my point exactly with respect to the Alpine cheese being made in the video. Do you really think that a licensed cheese maker in North America could get away with using those time proven techniques?
Ken
Ken,
The Alpine cheese, if it is a worthwhile cheese, will be aged well beyond 60 days. The whole purpose of the Alpine cheese making techniques and technology is to produce a cheese that will last through the long Alpine winer.
Regarding your question: Wisconsin is the only state in the US that requires cheese makers to undergo an apprenticeship and licensing. Other states require the facility to be licensed, but do not require the cheese maker to be. However, I don't think it is the techniques in that video which would be drawn into question by our health inspectors. Copper kettles are used in a handful of highly industrialized and automated facilities right here in Wisconsin. What the North American inspectors would question is the facility.
Clearly, we don't live in the same cultural and historical context in 21st century North America as the cultural & historical context in which those Alpine cheese making traditions were developped.
......It's a Pediatric Physiatrist
I'm sorry, jillyb, but I have been in medicine for 30 years & have never hear of a Pediatric Physiatrist, do you mean a Pediatric Physician? Can you please clarify, thank you.
Pediatric Physiatry
pediatric physiatry program (also known as Pediatric Rehabilitation Medicine) focuses on the individual's ability to function as independently as possible, looking at all aspects of the child’s well-being, rather than just as a patient. Our program treats children with the following conditions:
Brain injury fractures
Cerebral palsy
Spina bifida
Birth brachial plexus palsy
Neuromuscular diseases
Torticollis
Congenital and acquired amputations
Acute and long-term spinal cord injuries
Pediatric burns
In addition, our pediatric physiatrists also provide prescriptions for durable medical equipment such as wheelchairs, bracing and communication devices, and manage spasticity with medication, physical therapy and Botox.
So sorry to hear about your daughter, JillyB.
As I will continue to point out to this movement, the most powerless victims here are not the farmers. Although I agree that dairy farmers have long been an exploited class in the system of American capitalism, in the raw milk arena the most powerless victims are the children who, such as your daughter, have little choice in the matter.
I see, you are referring to that newer physical therapy program geared to pediatrics for various medical conditions.
" ......It's a Pediatric Physiatrist"
I didn't know they renamed the rehab docs.
That is her doctors title. Didn't know it was renamed or a newer job as I like to call my last seven months of medical immersion in learning about how to now care for my daughter.
jillyb,
As others have expressed their support for a speedy healthy recovery, I do the same. I would like to encourage you to write out your experience, and hopefully you kept a daily diary of all doctors appts and stays in hospitals, along with your daughter's reaction to this ordeal and other family members.
The reason for writing a daily diary is multi-fold, it helps you to release suppressed emotions (we all carry them when stressed) for many it helps in emotional healing, and allows you to recall things that you may have forgotten. As you re-read what you wrote, details may come back to you. Also, this will aide in the event you should go to court.
The healthcare community are humans and they not only make mistakes, they can't always agree on the best practices for care; for example-giving antibiotics, anti-diarrhea, narcotics with suspected E-coli.
I have always encouraged patients and family members to write daily while under health care as you cannot remember all that is said or done, especially when under such stress, also question everything you don't know/understand. An example is being newly diagnosed with diabetes, that patient's brain stops functioning; it is trying to assimilate what all that diagnoses entails. The doctor can speak for 30 minutes and they don't hear what the doctor is saying after that word. Later, they think the doctor didn't say anything more than they have diabetes. It's a survival mechanism of our brain.
Jillyb - I'm so sorry that your daughter got so ill. It is horrible. As a fellow mother, my heart goes out to you and your family. I hope she has a full recovery.
Certainly you should share your story - it is one of the data points that we all have to take into consideration when choosing to drink raw milk or eat any other food. Does the risk mean that people shouldn't be able to eat any food they choose? I think not.
This spring, my son got smacked in the face by a baseball during practice. He was very, very lucky - it was nothing more than a swollen cheek (and yes, he was wearing a helmet). It could have been much worse, like his eye or nose or teeth. Would any of those injuries mean that kids shouldn't play baseball? Again, I think not. Although it's easy to dismiss the risks for a common activity like baseball, the reality is that someone, somewhere will get hurt, sometimes very badly. We all make tradeoffs.
A civilized society has to balance liberty and safety, and I daresay the edge needs to go to liberty. My beloved United States of America is on a dangerous turn towards the other way.
Yes, life is a risk. My son plays keeper for his soccer team and decided to slide tackle the goal post - it won and his toe could of been broken. We know that he may get injured playing soccer and especially playing in the keeper position. What i wish I understood when I decided to give my daughter raw milk is that their is a risk of ecoli and hus. No where in my research was it there - that kids get real sick. Going back to the insurance issue or financial responsibility at the beginning of the school we can buy additional insurance to protect him if he does get injured. Shouldn't customers understand the greater risk to giving kids raw milk and then be encouraged to make sure they have adequate coverage if their family was to get sick if not them, who?
JillyB, I am SO sorry to hear of your story. I live near you, Clackamas county, Oregon, and kept dairy goats for a few years. When I first started milking them, I had to figure out whether or not I should pasteurize the milk. I did my own research, and, based on my own background in food safety (I am ServSafe certified) and the reading that I did, I decided that there was absolutely no way that I would let my child drink the milk raw. The biggest reason that I came to this conclusion is that the arguments posted by WAPF are illogical, not based on science, and many of the scientific "references" they do point to have nothing whatsoever to do with the consumption of raw milk. Unfortunately, most folks just take the word of the WAPF and the raw milk community at face-value rather than actually criticizing the information for themselves. It's very, very sad, especially in circumstances such as yours, where a child did actually suffer the worst case-scenario.
And might I just add that likening getting hit in the face by a baseball to the severely life-altering event that you went through is totally absurd. Yes, we expect that sometimes when we play sports, we might get hit in the face. But the situation you went through is obviously TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Hello??? We're talking a MILLION DOLLARS in insurance claims, and your daughter went through an absolute nightmare and her life is changed forever because of what she went through. I feel so sorry for you, and I am so angry at all the raw milkers who seem to think that a child going through this is okay, or that it is the same thing as getting hit in the face by a baseball!! How absolutely infuriating!!
I sure hope you will keep telling your story. There aren't many people that are willing to speak up about their concerns regarding raw milk directly to the raw milk community. I've been doing so since I first did the reading about the supposed (nonexistent) benefits of raw milk. I've made a few people think twice about giving their children raw milk and for that I am thankful. Unfortunately it is going to take a whole lot of us to speak up and get everyone to actually think about what they are doing. But it is imperative, as children, such as your sweet baby, should not have to suffer because of the awful decisions that their parents make.
When my son wrestled in high school (18 yrs ago), he tore the muscle from the scapula (shoulder blade) on another kid. Because of the tear, that kids shoulder girdle is severely compromised, he still has pain with many movements. A permanent disability for him at such a young age. The parents did not buy any extra insurance, he only had whatever policy his parents had from work. I don't see what the difference is, each kid was sick/injured. Wow, per your post, those parents made an "awful decision" to allow their son to wrestle.
Who are the 'raw milkers' "who seem to think that a child going through this is okay"? I can't imagine anyone thinking it's ok. I've not read WAPF's information on raw milk, so I can't comment on it. I never heard of WAPF until I came to this blog.
amym, you misconstrue my comment if you think I equate a minor sports injury to a life-threatening/life-changing illness. I used an anecdote from my own life to illustrate the point of risk; perhaps it wasn't an apt one. Sylvia used a better example. I was trying to 1) offer my sympathy for jillyb's situation, 2) encourage her to share her story and 3) suggest that a complete ban on raw milk is not the answer. This is too complex an issue for simple solutions.
I am not advocating a complete ban on raw milk. I am just asking that these sites that parents like myself use for information be more informed about the risk. There is information out there said tr good bacteria in raw milk will kill the bad bacteria so therefore it isn't a risk. There also needs to be more warnings about allowing children to consume. They can't fight off the bacteria.
Here is the warning label I would like to see used in the raw milk movement:
Warning: Unpasteurized milk, also known as raw milk, is a raw agricultural product and may contain harmful bacteria (not limited to E. coli, Campylobacter, Listeria, and Salmonella) and can lead to serious injury and even death. Pregnant women, infants, children, the elderly, and persons with lowered resistance to disease (immune compromised) have higher risk for harm, which may include bloody diarrhea, vomiting, fever, dehydration, Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome, Guillian-Barre Syndrome, Reactive Arthritis, Irritable, Bowel Syndrome, miscarriage, or death.
Note: Raw Milk must be kept refrigerated at 40 degrees at all times.
This website was created to warn people about the down side of drinking raw milk. I wish you would have seen it before making the decision to have your family consume raw milk.
http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/
Jilly
The people that man those sites are well informed.
Ken
I DO think that raw milk should be banned. I used to think that a warning label would suffice, but, given the incredibly amount of DISinformation out there, and the fact that folks who run these farms don't always take responsibility for their actions (ahem... just read through McAfee's comments if you want examples) I just think it is too much of a risk. No child should have to go through what yours did, or what Mary's child did.
But I agree with Mary, that warning label is an absolute must if nothing else.
The BSK study (Mark McAfee) started the misinformation about raw milk having the ability to kill pathogens. It was in the 1st addition of the Untold Story of Milk. In the 2nd addition, it was removed. Amanda Rose wrote a wonderful paper on the subject with great charts to show what the BSK study really revealed. It lowered pathogens. It did not kill them.
Hi Mary,
That is why it is very important for a robust and controlled lactic-acid fermentation of raw milk. When done with the correct cultures and proper controls, milk fermentation can reduce pathogens to zero.
Bill
Then you lose the benefit of being exposed to those "pathogens".
If we are going to stay ahead of the game we need to acquaint ourselves with the new kid on the block. Isolating ourselves from that new kid creates a hostile environment and is not constructive.
A robust colony of lactic acid in raw milk is important. Fermentation on the other hand is unnecessary if one wishes to consume raw milk safely.
Ken
Mary
“It lowered pathogens. It did not kill them”?
If it did not kill them then where did they go?
Did they jump out of the petri dish and run away?
Ken
Ken, over time the pathogens disminished. They also do this in pasteurized milk. I don't have the paper in front of me, but certain pathogens dismished quicker than others. The point is they did not die and therefore could still cause someone to become ill. It was very irresponsible to represent this study as "raw milk has the capacity to kill pathogens". That is the point I am trying to make.
http://actavet.vfu.cz/pdf/200170020179.pdf
The heat resistant and probiotic nature of the fecal organism bacillus subtillis found in cattle manure, may explain why pasteurized milk could have an inhibitory effect on certain organisms.
Ken
"... DISinformation that is out there" ?
such as the sworn testimony of Dr Ron Hull ... received as an expert by the committee of the California Legislature, in the hearing wherein he stated that raw milk "out-competes" the pathogens introduced in to milk. Take a look at the credentials of Dr Hull, Phd, before you fold -in to this forum your patented poison. Dr Hull headed the Australian govt. dairy research bureau for a decade / now in private practice, advising commercial outfits how to produce and deliver dairy products, safely. He's one of the very best-informed scientists in the world on this topic. His testimony in 2008 was, that, 'sometimes a batch of yoghurt will contain a strain of pathogen. So the company just lets it sit, til the friendly bacteria out-live the pathogen' = my paraphrase. Page and line #s from the official transcript, available for those who are sincerely interested in the truth of the matter.
One good thing, I see, M M Mc : since Hallowe'en is over, you've at least dropped your mask ... pretending to be at all tolerant of REAL MILK. I had you pegged as trouble-maker from the start
Can David, Mark, or Charlotte confirm how much liability coverage there is with a $750 premium? We actually pay more than that in our business and we're data analysts with no real exposure.
Amanda
Amanda,
@10 years ago, for an RN who worked -other than ER or OB/GYN, a policy for one million coverage was about @100 per year. If you worked the ED or OB/GYN areas, then it was significantly higher(I don't recall the exact amount).
In the state of PA, nurse midwives have or had only two carriers to choose from for malpractice insurance. Many hospitals will say they cover the nursing staff should a law suit be initiated. I've heard stories that lean toward not depending on any employer to protect me. Depending upon your employer to defend you is not wise. Per a friend of mine: 'The first question my employer's attorneys asked us (all of the nurses were named as defendants) was whether or not we had personal malpractice insurance. I guess it wasn't public record. Then they told us that at any time during the proceedings they could stop representing us as individuals. They did. So where would I have been without my malpractice insurance? In the middle of a lawsuit without an attorney. ' Just being named in a lawsuit, and having done no wrong, may inhibit you from being employed elsewhere as an RN as it is asked on most applications.
Insurance is another scam. Why does my home owners insurance go up when there are mud slides in Ca, tornadoes in the midwest, hurricanes on the coasts, and I haven't placed any claims? Soon NY will be like Florida, difficult to get insurance or have to pay extremely high prices.
Sylvia,
The Federal Reserve providing free money/zero interests/driving inflation, etc., artificially inflating the price of land and homes especially (I just read a great article to this very fact that land prices continue to soar, as the super rich, who benefit from Obama's Bernake free money give away, use it to buy more and more land), is one of many factor driving up insurance prices.. the government subsidizing people's stupidity, encouraging them to build in flood planes, hurricane allies, etc...
Could say more, but the whole system is a rigged game. The winners are friends with the pols and who get the stolen money first... the losers, everyone else.
Coverage is for $1,000,000 per occurrence, with a limit of two occurrences in the calendar year.
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