The Raw Milk Institute has already in its young life raised a number of provocative questions.
Should it be about lobbying or not? How will its standards be developed? Is it about publicly or privately available milk…or both?
It is the last question that is perhaps the most tantalizing, since it affects other key aspects of RAWMI’s future.
Mark McAfee makes reference to that question in his comment following my previous post, when he says:
“It is our observation, that there are two camps (at least) in the raw milk movement. Those that appear to want legalized access to raw milk and change of laws, and those that want decriminalization of raw milk with no government regulation or intrusion what so ever.
“It appears that the loudest voices among these two groups is the decriminalization group. RAWMI is a grass roots organization and is responsive to all in the movement. Our primary objective is building access to safe raw milk. That means cows shares or legalized raw milk.”
But then Deborah Stockton corrects McAfee:
“What we want is decriminalization of raw milk with no government regulation or intrusion what so ever IN DIRECT FARMER TO CUSTOMER TRANSACTIONS. None of us is advocating getting rid of Claravale or OPDC or any other ‘public’ raw milk dairy. Just no regs or interference in direct farmer to customer trade. A restoration of a million tiny totally unregulated farms providing raw milk to their communities. That has been normal human practice for millennia.”
I believe McAfee is being sincere when he talks about “building access to safe raw milk (for) cow shares or legalized raw milk.” But more and more people are wondering whether those twin goals–publicly and privately available raw dairy–are truly compatible.
The problem is less about regulation than it is about priorities, in my view.
The first camp that McAfee describes, which wants “legalized access to raw milk and change of laws,” seems to place its emphasis on expanding the market for raw milk any which way it can. I know some people believe that goal is financially driven, and certainly there has to be a financial component, but I think it’s more about getting the milk out there. It doesn’t matter to these proponents if it is two large dairies in each state, like in California presently, or 1,000 smaller dairies in each state. Just get the milk to as many people as possible, so they can experience the wonderful health benefits of raw milk, goes the thinking.
The second camp, which Stockton described, places its priority on “the direct farmer transactions”–in other words, on the sanctity of the private contractual relationship between consumer and farmer. The priority is much less on spreading raw milk consumption as widely as possible than it is on ensuring that those individuals who value access to nutrient-dense food can have it directly from the farmer of their choosing. The consumers choose the farmers who produce the best food, and the farmers benefit economically by selling direct, enough that more and more individuals take up farming…and maybe some day we have “the million tiny unregulated farms providing raw milk…” that Stockton longs for.
Which of these models is the most appropriate for RAWMI? I’d say the private model. For small dairies that are supplying products privately, without government regulation, there is a monitoring void of sorts. Thus, a voluntary set of standards and a testing protocol could be the perfect means of communicating quality to consumers who haven’t spent a lot of time around farms, and aren’t expert enough to measure husbandry and sanitation.
As anyone who has spent much time in the farming community knows, many dairies providing raw milk focus heavily on quality. But there are some, and I don’t pretend to know the percentage, that aren’t well run, and provide milk that isn’t of the highest quality. Their milk may taste “barn-yardy” and/or start souring in five days. As Violet Willis says in a comment following my previous post, “sometimes a small farmer may have an operation that is comparable to a CAFO or factory farm . . . but on a smaller scale…I have seen some seriously bad husbandry over the last month . . . from local farms out there.”
Yes, it can be argued that consumers are equipped to make the final decision, by virtue if what their noses and taste buds are telling them. But I know that many consumers would be reassured to know that the farm they are contracting with via a herdshare or buying club is following a realistic set of husbandry and sanitation standards that are being monitored by an organization like RAWMI.
Still unanswered is the question of whether so-called public raw milk can co-exist with privately available raw milk. The problem seems to be that once raw milk is placed under regulation of some type, the regulators want to have control of privately distributed raw milk. The notion of private raw milk, though, is that it is outside the public realm.
The Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund puts it well in a recent appeal of the case involving dairy farmers Wayne Craig and Mark Zinniker in Wisconsin. The appeal for the Zinnikers, who make their milk available to herdshare owners, states, “Private contracts and private property are beyond the reach of the State’s police powers when such contracts and property interests are private in nature and do not impact the public’s health, safety or welfare. Thus, a private contract between private parties involving private property (such as the private use of a herd of cows) that does not impact the public’s health, safety or welfare is beyond the reach of the State’s police power.”
We’ll see if the appeals court is more inclined to agree than the lower court that ruled against the Zinnikers and Craigs. We’ll also see if situations develop where the state comes to respect private contracts. Such an opportunity exists in California, where herd share owners are negotiating with the California Department of Food and Agriculture over achieving some sort of co-existence between the two permitted raw dairies, and some hundreds of herdsahre situations.
So I’m increasingly thinking that RAWMI has a role, it just may not be the original role its founders had in mind. That’s not unusual in the world of new and innovative ideas.
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Raw dairy supporters are beginning to back a campaign to support their local sheriffs attending the Constitutional Sheriffs Convention in Las Vegas Jan. 29-31. Some are contributing to the County Sheriff Project, which will pay for some local sheriffs to attend the conference.
Plus, a number of raw milk supporters are expecting to attend; more on this last item upcoming.
I would expect the farmer to know his/her jobs.
" that are being monitored by an organization like RAWMI. "
Sounds like more govt BS and $$$ from the farmers, not something that has proven to look out for the masses.
If the people expect any entity to "monitor" for them, they will never take responsibility for their own choices nor learn what they should know about their foods.
As the founder, I did not know what I know now. I did not know about the two camps that sit mostly opposing one another and sharing little. I did not know about the vocal minority and the mostly quiet majority. I did not know about farmers that absolutely want no help or assistance to develop consumer friendly programs to show the work they do for safety. I did not know that many Cow Share operators reject any kind of exposure and demand absolute secrecy.
Perhaps my view is biased, because I founded RAWMI to be a tool of total transparency and open communications to all. A serious wake up call to my utopia of an America that was open to raw milk.
Now I know all about who likes these ideas and who hates them. This has been a very worthy probe into the deep mind and soul of raw milk in America. RAWMI will take what it has learned and move forward.
To learn from adventure is the gift of life.To teach from this experience is a gift to humanity.
Raw milk standards and regulationsfood safetyfarming practices private vs. public this will all be moot if as a society we dont wake up and fight to hold onto our fundamental rights to own property, conduct business and choose the food we eat. We need to organize and educate within our communities about the far reaching dangers of highly processed mass produced food and the benefits of sustainably produced nutrient dense food. And not waste our energy arguing over who is more rightthat is exactly what the opposition is hoping for.
As the progression of raw milk distribution becomes evident in North America, it would do us good to remember a few things.
If we have an over site organization that promotes or certifies certain practices and meet the value parameters of the current consumer and their food, we are not allowing that consumer an engagement opportunity with a producer or a valuable learning experience that comes from learning about the product, its producer or the added value of building a relationship, not only with the producer but with another who has had the experience and has come to value the product.
We have to remember that California raw milk distribution in time and breadth is an anomaly not the norm. The raw milk movement east of the Rockies has grown through word of mouth, always has, most likely always will. As we watch the local food movement grow you will see what is being promoted as local in the Far west with its vast interrelated distribution system has no relation to what happens in the rest of the country, except in regions whom may or may not make that model work. That is where we will see certification work well given the relative distance food travels. Yes its local as far as the west is concerned but very large distances compared to the east coast.
Mark has much to be proud of in his raw milk promotion program but developing an organization around that success, and only that success does not allow for the realizations of the diversity we value in the products that are subject to the organization.
I also have to add that being an arm chair consultant or arm chair over site organization has severe limitations and can only go so far and respond to very basic problems and practices. Farms are holistic organisms and dont respond well to flow charts and unless one can ask a myriad of questions on a regular basis, even then defining a situation and its remedy is near impossible no matter how much data one has about a farm, short of being on that farm and evaluate all actions by everyone and everything involved from kids to cats, puddles to pipeline.
Is that possible, with the right amount of zeros yes, but any organization should teach the farmer to observe, asked questions evaluate through some testing. If a producer ignores information available to improve or correct a situation they do so at the risk of losing the consumer. The organization doing the teaching should teach themselves out of existence given the wisdom has been revived on each farm and then passed on through the traditional channels of daily routine and generational transfer.
We are in a time where wisdom has been ignored and we are paying for it with our health, and that trend is being reversed. To supplant wisdom with testing is not the answer and is the very reason we got in this mess in the first place. Balance is the key, in our soils, in our understanding and in our approach to the forces we must align ourselves with. To relegate that balance to testing alone is to ignore the other 75% of what it takes to create a quality product, and takes responsibility away to gaining wisdom and the relationships it forges.
Tim Wightman
I think a bunch of us would really appreciate you clarifying your comments below. Taken at face value, they seem to show a real disdain and mean spirited treatment of those who disagree with you and your views (which are hard to discern and pin down at times, to put it mildly) and the things RAWMI was doing over the past few months.
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RAWMI made some assumptions when it's mission was established and it was founded just a few months ago.
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No debate here.
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As the founder, I did not know what I know now. I did not know about the two camps that sit mostly opposing one another and sharing little.
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How are they sharing little? Most of the various people chat quite a bit about various facets of the raw milk/food freedom issue. The camps in my experience never engaged in any opposition to each other until the actions of RAWMI made a large number of farmers feel threatened by its actions against them.
It was a RAWMI board member who sent a public email about divisions in the raw milk movement, only to later trash one of the leaders of the movement in a private email.
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I did not know about the vocal minority and the mostly quiet majority.
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This is a bit of a twist… Mark, you know it isn't a vocal minority. At the least it is a 50/50 split on these issues.
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I did not know about farmers that absolutely want no help or assistance to develop consumer friendly programs to show the work they do for safety. I did not know that many Cow Share operators reject any kind of exposure and demand absolute secrecy.
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Again Mark, purposeful twisting. It is not that they we want NO HELP… we do not want YOUR/RAWMI's HELP, especially forced on them via the long arm of the state.
And Mark, share operators by nature don't have absolute secrecy… because they have MEMBERS. GASP! FAINT!
Yes, people come and see… their farms. And know… their names! Of course, most of us are running around with masks on and using aliases… trying to avoid the black helicopters…
And you wonder why so many no longer trust you and why you are such a force of division at this point.
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Perhaps my view is biased, because I founded RAWMI to be a tool of total transparency and open communications to all.
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Then why have you and RAWMI been so not transparent?
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A serious wake up call to my utopia of an America that was open to raw milk.
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Again Mark, just because people do not agree with YOUR vision for raw milk in America, does not mean they don't want raw milk for amerca. Again, you wonder why people are so ticked, but you just continue going on and on and further reinforce what many have already figured out.
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Now I know all about who likes these ideas and who hates them. This has been a very worthy probe into the deep mind and soul of raw milk in America. RAWMI will take what it has learned and move forward.
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Again, a comment that is loaded, purposefully denigrating those who don't see things your way. What do they "hate," Mark? What ideas? Again, most love the ideas, not the way RAWMI sought to strong arm implement them, the lack of transparency on RAWMI's part, and more.
Most don't feel that a farm/farmer with the husbandry, outsourcing, and others issues OPDC has should be setting the bar and leading the way for RM in America.
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To learn from adventure is the gift of life.To teach from this experience is a gift to humanity.
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Vomit. Twice. Mark, you would do well to spend some time with some old books that describe pride/hubris and its various ends, before you become a modern tale for the ages.
Oh good grief, Mark!! You are making the classic mistake of confusing the internet world with the real one. The number of fresh-milk farmers pro or con Rawmi who write here is tiny compared to the THOUSANDS out there who aren't even on the internet, let alone know about this blog… like the Amish for example. To say you know how the silent majority thinks is ridiculous. But yeah, they probably DON'T want your help because they've been doing it for decades before you decided your way was the only way; and no one has become ill or dead on their milk.
"Now I know all about who likes these ideas and who hates them. This has been a very worthy probe into the deep mind and soul of raw milk in America."
Oh for pete's sake… get over yourself. Once again, you are associating those who write here with every fresh milk dairyman in the US, on or off the Net.
Deb Stockton and Farmer John have it right about direct farmer transactions and that East of the Rockies is NOT the same as West of the Rockies.
"…the sanctity of the private contractual relationship between consumer and farmer. The priority is much less on spreading raw milk consumption as widely as possible than it is on ensuring that those individuals who value access to nutrient-dense food can have it directly from the farmer of their choosing.
What's so terrible about people coming directly to the farmer of their choice to get their milk?? Yes, it's limiting the number of people who can get fresh milk to those who are willing to come to the farm to get it. Almost every one I know who has fresh milk does NOT really want to grow any bigger.
Something Mark absolutely refuses to believe, it seems.
Your LLC and organization sound wonderful. I support what you are doing 100% and I hope you win your appeal!
I want to congratulate RAWMI and its success with its focus on safety. I don't know about east of the Rockies or even east of the Sierra, but here in California before November we had a line of colostrum products available at retail that were entirely unregulated and it appears that has changed.
As background, there was a colostrum pint, half gallon, and a kefir quart sold in many of the 300 retail stores. The half gallon and kefir products both looked and tasted like milk but they apparently had colostrum sprinkled in them. Because it is illegal to sell colostrum as a dairy product in California, it was sold under a license from the Department of Health and unregulated by the CDFA. On the OPDC website where it made claims about state testing, those claims did not apply to colostrum. It was legal to outsource colostrum as well.
This was the product line with the infamous 140 million fecal coliform count per ml in the 2006 state outbreak report and that became a popular choice for moms to use in their homemade infant formula.
Only months after the launch of RAWMI with its focus on food safety, it appears that since the e coli recall this product is now being regulated. Mark did say that if more regulation came out of the recall, he would send his band of hungry mama lions after the CDFA. Since the lions have not been released, I can only assume that this colostrum move has come right from RAWMI itself. It would be interesting to hear the back story.
Amanda
aka "Foxy"
-That young, idealistic and sincere mothers are being courted by reps of a system who want to bottle this spirit and idealism, present a convincing zero-sum game and exploit them because of it.
Kind of sounds like human pasteurization to me.
-That people I wouldn't expect it of lie or remain ignorant to protect their cause/case/ass
-That the word "passion" is overused, few people know what it really means and now when I
hear it I want to run in the other direction.
-That friendships end because of this as any questioning means your're the bad guy/girl. This
is insanity.
-Quality and accountability are becoming second to building a market through social media
-That when I think that the depths of hubris can go no deeper, they do.
-That people think they are smarter than bacteria
-That magicians are good at pulling the marks focus so the trick can work
-That people take themselves way too seriously
-That all the apologies in the world mean nothing if there isn't any sincerity behind it.
-That transparency stops when it comes to opening the books
-That paranoia and conflict are used as rocket fuel
-That many business people in the raw milk and whole food movement self-establish
groups for the benefit of marketing. This marketing is projected onto consumers as
signs of quality and approval.
-That educations of customers stops at a certain point as the educators have little to no
farming experience, their knowledge is based on hearsay and they seem to or choose to
be kept out in the cold regarding actual information.
How about everyone milking the cows twice a day, keeping your numbers down, taking care of your customers and starting an association based on a 4-H model where info about research, technology and practices are shared. The bison farmers have been doing this for years.
I predict a split is going to happen. For some people and farms too much is at stake as the cart is before the horse. And my experience is that when the cart leads a lot of wreckage is left behind.
what you monomaniacal individualists don't appreciate is how determinedly evil Big Government is. They are out to get you … and it's not about health
I use the Freedom of Information protocol to extract from the govt. Bunker, hard copy proofs of their mentality. In 2008, in British Columbia, our cowshare came to the attention of the so-called "health Authorities". Internal emails show that within the ranks of their own experts, there was disagreement about the risk of harm from REAL MILK. Didn't matter = they immediately set out to put us out of operation, as an example so they could go after the smaller ones easily. To each other, they admitted that they needed a real complaint as a premise. Problem – for them – was that no-one was getting sick from the milk. So they just went ahead anyway ; breaking the law doesn't matter. The hallmark of the tyrant is that he feels that he IS the law.
These commisars of the USSA have nothing better to do than to come on to the tiniest little homestead, and ruin what they define as domestic terrorists' … what their pals in Red Russia called 'their class enemies'.. because you dissent from the central party policy
If you believe that you-all can survive by hiding out / staying under the radar, while the dark night of fascism descends on Ham-merica … educate you-self = go read what happened in Russia. Especially, Alexandr Solzenhitzen's famous quote, "how our hearts burned, as we sat in the camps, thinking about what should have been our response to the knock on the door in the middle of the night…"
Americans are now so cowed that you won't do what the Founders of the Republic did = take up arms against the tyrant. We have to hang together. Or we shall all hang separately
"the sanctity of private contract" you say? you're 2 generations behind the pace : that one was lost when FDR stole the gold of America
Stop trying to teach grandmother to suck eggs.
you're new here, aren't you?
from my decade in the Campaign for REAL MILK, and paying close attention to the last couple of years' postings on this forum, and also on the RawDairy Forum on Yahoo (before I got kicked off for saying things they weren't able to grasp) … I know that the root of the raw milk controversy is that Americans are sound asleep to the fact that = we are ruled by people who hate us =
Educate you-self …so as to grasp my reference, before you display such ignorance.
We do not, in general impugn the production from the public dairies, but now we find the term black market milk being used by members of RAWMIs leadership to describe milk from non-regulated producers. Hard not to interpret that as a deliberate effort at fearmongering, slander, divisiveness, and so on.
Whats the intent? Do you who use that term believe that raw milk from non-regulated production is unfit to consume????? If so, say so. If not, why use that term or words like it?
Those who are small and unregulated and have chose the LLC model are vulnerable, because the corporation is an entity of the state.
Millions of tiny unregulated small farms providing raw milk to their communities has been normal practice since the advent of agriculture. The restoration of this system will restore health and well-distributed prosperity. As Tim Wightman said, the generational wisdom of that system is still with us. Tremendous knowledge is available from many diverse sources.
We will all, I hope, work to further the County Sheriff Project. The county sheriff is the firewall between us and any government agent or agency that would injure our rights. In my county, we met with our county sheriff before Christmas to tell him about the January convention in Nevada and to talk to him about being a Constitutional protector. It was a good meeting and we remain in contact. Please begin to grow a relationship with your county sheriff. If you need support or help in that effort, please contact us through the email form on this website (log in, click on my name and fill in the email form) or email me through the NICFA website, http://www.nicfa.us .
Yours for real food freedom.
Certified Organic.
Is it perfect? No. Has it been abused and misused for corporate profit? Yes. But on the flip side, there has been concerted efforts to reform the organic standards and hold big business accountable for their abuse of the standards, by such upstanding groups as the Cornucopia Institute and Family Farm Defenders.
All in all, has the development of "certified organic" been beneficial?
Absolutely, yes. There is no question about it.
In a state like Wisconsin, organic certification (and the premiums it provides to small farmers) has been a godsend, and has helped to keep many more small farmers on the land than if organic certification had never been developed.
The RawMI naysayers are making the perfect the enemy of the good.
You don't have to agree with my political beliefs, but you have to recognize that regulated raw milk is better than no raw milk. In a state like Wisconsin, with a $26 Billion dairy industry (that's billion with a "B") an organization like RawMI is absolutely essential to increasing consumers access to raw milk. It is unfortunate that the RawMI efforts were intentionally sabotaged by our supposed allies, over their narrow ideological dogmas.
I guess raw milk will remain illegal in Wisconsin. Oh well… I tried my damnedest to make it legal, but one person can only do so much. Its time for me to focus on what's important to me: artisan raw milk cheese. Good luck guys. You are going to need it.
And stating that "the perfect is the enemy of the good" is a false dichotomy.
It does not need to be this way.
What I see in the raw milk movement is a lot of ideological fundamentalism. Its like trying to argue with a militant vegan over the environmental value of small-scale pasture-based animal agriculture.
Until the raw milk activists are willing to open up their minds and consider other viewpoints, and let go of their narrow "libertarian" dogmas, progress will never be made on this issue. Raw milk will continue to be criminalized and oppressed by the government.
I am not interested in being another victim of this misguided cult. I intend to operate in a legal and regulated public market, providing the best quality raw milk cheese I can to local consumers. If you want to take your chances on the black market, be my guest. But don't come complaining to me when you find yourself being prosecuted over it. I tried my best to help change the law, but all I received in return is scorn and hatred.
Good luck guys. You are going to need it.
the raw milk thing is just a momentary hotspot in the battle for the soul of white Christian America…. or perhaps those dead white guys got it wrong ?
I have science on my side = that Caucasians have the DNA traits of digesting milk into adulthood, and that that gene is dominant. Not just a mere co-incidence ; rather, the very essence of why the enemies of the Republic are working so hard against a seemingly simple thing like raw milk… because it's an essential in the law of our God
Bill, you share one thing in common with Mark — anyone who disagrees with you is a cultist, the enemy, stupid and/or evil. I'll grant you one thing, you don't wear the ideological blinders you accuse others of; instead you see boogeymen around every corner like the germophobes' Red Scare. Your loaded, inflammatory, deliberately deceptive language even parallels Mark's own, and the more you both paint any and all dissension as lunacy, divisiveness and criminality, the more you should seek to remove the beam from your own eye before casting accusation and aspersion.
The word must go out about mark and his institute. We must let producers know that signing up with him means a 'conventional' future for raw milk….and that he cannot be trusted with the names and addresses of those that provide milk on a local scale (let be real here…do you think that if mark had the names of those small cow shares in California a few months ago, they wouldn't have been given to the CDFA..puhleeze) Those at the Foundation need to hear clearly the disagreement we have in mark's methodology…and his vision. WE are the movement…not a small minority who want to commoditize raw milk…and make it just another jug on the shelf. The raw milk community in this country is essentially served currently by small local producers…..if we want to keep it this way…we need to make sure the true motives of mark and his 'regulatory group' are shared.
What this movement needs is a real advocate for small local producers…..a millionaire farm owner, who employs a herd manager, PR person, a truck driver fleet, and has grandiose visions of spending millions building a 'mecca' for raw milk…. is not it.
Gordon…were you always such a turd…or did you learn how to be that way……?
Bill…your ego doesn't deserve a response.
Farmer John….keep up the good work. Exposing mark for the liar he is is critical for a better future for raw milk (and REAL raw milk farmers)..
Mark, is that correct? Are you out of the colostrum business? If this is so, why did this change come about?
Also Mark, Im still waiting for the answer about how 100 cows can service 30,000 people.
Damaged, I am right in tune with you. Your distinction of lawful and legal is spot on. Thank you. When I hear people say, "Oh, that's illegal!" I ask them if Rosa Parks should have moved to the back of the bus. Never get an answer…
I started an organization FarmFoodFreedomKY.org and on the front page I point out that what is not illegal is legal. Many of my fellow food freedom fighters want to introduce legislation to "legalize" cow shares and private contracts. I understand what drives them and have chosen to support it, but it is anathema to me. IT'S ALREADY LEGAL. Definitely already lawful.
I'm also with Deborah Stockton: no regs, no interference. The feds can't be trusted. They've proven that. I'm hoping to go to Las Vegas and participate in Sheriff Mack's training day. If our Sheriffs would do their jobs, we'd all be safer from gov interference in every area of our lives.
My fruits? well, me and my co-accused, Michael Schmidt, will go toe-to-toe with the 'health authorities" here, on their allegation we are in contempt of the Court Order, supposedly outlawing distribution of REAL MILK. Nothing like a bit of controversy to raise the profile of the issue. Every time they print something about raw milk, we get more requests for milk
separately : my civil claim against Fraser Health /Vancouver Coastal Health Authorities for the sake of them dumping our milk a couple of years ago, is posted on my website < http://www.freewebs.com/bovinity >. In that lawsuit, the govt.s own 460 pages of internal communications will undo them, proving MALfeasance of public office
After wading-around in the cesspools of Courtrooms for 30 years, I'd be happy if I never set foot in one again. But it's my calling so I do it. Partly because of my efforts, the REAL MILK is flowing in BC … lawfully. Dozens of cowshares are operating across Western Canada today, encouraged by the notoriety resulting from my boastfull-ness. On the national stage, it takes big broad theatrical gestures to reach those in the back rows. If you don't like my style = tough titty
Now it's your turn to put up or shut up, Mister Damaged = how much REAL MILK did you deliver this week? Other than snipe-away at those who do get up every day and do the work of dairying and politicking, what have you ever done to further the Campaign for REAL MILK ?
Your whinging carries less meaning than a teacup of stale smegma. You're dismissed, and you can hold your tiresome, insolent tongue until the grownups are done speaking.
And for the last time, I'm not a "mister".
As I said before, after a while you get familiar with the names and the agendas become clear. That means, you don't have to keep spelling it out for us as to where other people stand – it spells itself. Some are more noble than others, but all are worth voicing.
Thank you and have a nice raw milk drink today, it will make you feel better if it doesn't kill you. Right Mary? Ooops hope that wasn't too nasty. For the record, I'm in the camp that believes that a sterile world isn't worth living in. Getting sick is part of life and helps make you strong.
My old man used to tell a joke about the muleskinner carrying a 2 by 4 under the seat : punchline being, first of all you have to get the mule's attention. I reel-off a summary of what I've done only when I must, to emphasize that I have 15 years' perspective on this issue. I do know whereof I speak about raw milk : A decade in the so-called "tax protest movement' was my graduate program. I do have the measure of the enemy.
Actually, it's more like 23 years' perspective : I came along when the Patriot Movement was gathering so much momentum that the Powers-that-Be had to blow it to smithereens at Oklahoma City. What some of us saw back then, is playing out in ways such as the constitutional sherrifs convention, and Oath Keepers. Ron Paul is the only candidate who voices what white Christians want = a return to the way America was supposed to be run
til you answer a couple of simple questions, your credibility is zero : when's the last time you got your boots muddy in a farmyard where REAL MILK is being produced ? / how much REAL MILK have you delivered lately?
"Gordon": Last week. One quart a week, to myself (except this month I'm doing 30 days dairy-free to test eczema reactions). Now piss off, Yank.
(PS: Nonsensical theories about only white Christians being able and entitled to belligerently claim rights in person is the sort of discredited flat-earth junk for which the patriot/sovereign movement rightfully deserves to be mocked without mercy.)
Or will you find your own voice?
Yes….fresh raw colostrum has finally met it's match with the FDA and it's extended enforcement arm of government here in CA. OPDC will continue to provide raw colostrum as it has for the last 8 years but only as PET food and only on a special order basis.
The recall had nothing to do with colostrum. Nothing at all.
The recall gave CDFA and other regulatory agencies an opportunity to review OP offerings and finally get rid of raw colostrum.
We however, do have one apparent negotiated middle ground, and that appears to be our Fermented Raw Milk product called Qephor.. This Kefir like product appears to be coming to the shelves as a Grade A Raw Milk product….it used to be a dietary supplement. This is big for me.
Mark
You have been providing colostrum for 8 yrs and they now are banning it for human consumption?If it has nothing to do with the recall then, what is their reasoning?
Please do share what they have said as this will only help teach the masses about the oppressing govt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/09/world/europe/amid-economic-strife-greeks-look-to-farming-past.html
Here's a comment for Bill Anderson from that article, written by a Greek:
"Well I hope some good will come out of all this crisis that is eating up Greece and the future of its younger generation.Time for a reality check and return to basics which were forgotten after 1981 when Socialists came to power and transformed the DNA of people with the something for nothing mentality. Hence this beautiful little corner of Europe turned its back on its assets. It stopped [I think he meant to say "started"] being mobile and looking for work and progress in all Continents (half of all Greeks live abroad). It turned its back on seafaring that had made generations of them go from rags to riches. It turned its back on a land that produced not quantity but quality wholesome food that is again popular as people the world all over turn away from dangerous and unhealthy eating. It turned its back on many things that it needs to turn back to now and own up to mistakes made. One mistake though we did not make…I do not remember a time when the media or society sneered or condescended to any country or people that had problems like ours."
The financial world and mainstream media refer to Greece and other countries as PIIGS – Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain. Their economies are in shambles along with the rest of the European Union. Most economic experts say it is coming to the North American Union next (Canada, United States, Mexico) and yes, we are in the North American Union already. You will not hear this on your mainstream media outlets. That is how Canadian farmers fit into RAWMI, through the North American Union.
A few people have tried to talk about the economy on this blog, only to be met with silence. I wonder how people will pay $6, $8, $10+ for a gallon of raw milk as the economy continues to collapse.
Here is the lesson. The FDA hates anything raw.
When I first negotiated my permit from the DPH back in 2003-4 for Dietary Supplements, it was based on Colostrum being outside of the defintion of milk and therefore outside of the authority of CDFA ( the GRADE A Guys ) to regulate it. According to the CDFA colostrum is unfit for human consumption. \
According to the CA DPH, colostrum is a dietary supplement and they regulate dietary supplements.
When our recall was lifted, DPH directed the CDFA to lift all restrictions on sale of Colostrum….but CDFA refused and extended their juristictionn over this none dairy product. I argued that they had no authority and I AM RIGHT. 8 years of operations under DPH shows I am right. However, the state vet has practically unlimited powers. They rule the food safety roost on anything animal related.
So….I guess this is a lesson about when to fight and when to negotiate. We can still sell colostrum, it just will not be in stores. We also have a very good chance with bringing Kefir reformulated as a GRADE A product ( with no colostrum ) to the shelves. The CDFA counsel has already told us to expect an answer on this with in days. The Quarantine release already stated that Qephor could be brought to market if it did not contain any colostrum…we submitted a reformulated label reflecting jsut that. We will see how the CDFA responds. If we have problems with this process… then we will address that when we get there.
The state of CA could care less about consumers choices in raw dairy products. They assign no healing or medical value to these products….The FDA stands closely behind them at every turn.
My strategy….build raw dairy markets by increased access to safe raw milk….that means cow shares, micro dairies, familiy cows, local dairies…more stores with raw milk. More healthy happy kids and families.
The tipping point will be reached. TEACH TEACH TEACH…
http://politicalcompass.org/euchart
When I think of a good model of European Social Democracy, I think of Germany and Scandinavia.
See this:
http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/over-half-germany-renewable-energy-owned-citizens-not-utility-companies.html
AND This:
http://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/capitalist-us-vs-socialist-germany/
Then consider that the German Green Party has been part of the ruling coalition in their parliament (on and off) for much of the last 10 years. The German shift away from Nuclear and Fossil Fuel power (and towards renewable energy) is thanks in large part to social-level planning and policy, not merely to individual investment or initiative.
in Germany, the Green Party is known as "the Watermellon Party … green on the outside, red on the inside". A handy illustration of how bad the cognitive dissonance is there, is that its present Chancellor was a card-carrying commie in her youth. The triumph of the Fabians! …
Facts have a way of sobering-up the populace after a binge of profligacy such as the commmies always inflict on every country wjere they're allowed to set up shop = the Union of Soviet-ized States of Hamerica, is headed down the same slippery slope
You are right….and Claravale raw milk in quarts is even more expensive. CA is the only market in the world where organic is priced lower than conventional….that is right, OPDC made a consumer committment to keep our raw milk prices as low as possible and we kept that promise.
On average Claravale is priced about $4 per gallon more than OPDC. Then add th cost of glass deposits. Claravale is expensive for all conventional grain and alfalfa and no pastures.
OPDC has prided itself on being very tour friendly ( our EcoVisits at the dairy ) and family budget friendly. We even created buyers clubs that drops our prices by 50% from stores pricing.Claravale does not post bacteria counts and does not tour their dairy. OPDC even gives away free raw milk at their free Share the Secret raw milk presentations.
As far as raw milk sales being threatened by a failing economy, one of our customers once old me……I would rather buy a case of your raw milk, than to have a case of cancer! Raw milk beats asthma inhalers!!! The math is easy….raw milk replaces doctors 90%of the time.
As our economy struggles, people begin to realize that the only real thing they own is their health….it's value…..priceless. Children with no ear infections or asthma and Immune systems working well!! Priceless….love and health has no worldly value. Raw milk grows as people reconnect with what is real again.
Claravale feeds organic hay and organic grains and their cows have access to pasture during the growing season.
Many of us prefer our milk in glass bottles and we consider reusable glass containers to be more environmentally sustainable than plastic containers. The trucks have to drive up here to deliver the full bottles. It makes sense that they take the empty bottles back when they return.
The bottle deposit doesn't increase the cost of Claravale milk. It is a deposit. We get the money back in full when we return the bottle.
It is very disappointing to see you slandering California's oldest raw milk dairy.
You owe Ron and Collette an apology.
I'm with Suzanna, you need to apologize to Ron and Collette.
This thread is about your RAWMI pet project currently being called out because of serious concerns as to it's scope and agenda (and you never really bothered to listen to the arguments against it on this blog for awhile now, and ooops, now you've had a change of heart…now you'll listen to the smaller guys?) and questions as to why your colostrum is no longer available.
Now you go and further stir the pot by saying untruths and half truths about Claravale? I don't get it…
Kristen
So maybe I'll stoop to your level and re-stir the "OPDC vs. Claravale" pot again to help you deflect attention from the real issues at hand:
1) A little birdie told me that James Stewart of Rawesome fame, working for Organic Pastures, almost ran Claravale out of business. How? He lied to the markets and said that Claravale had gone out of business. Word is Ron Garthwaite had to scramble to get his Claravale milk back in the markets…Is this true? If so, I wonder if you had any hand in that?
2) These videos say a lot: http://healthytraditions.com/blog/post.cfm/certified-raw-milk-in-california-visits-to-the-two-raw-milk-dairies
Kristen
MW
I so miss the dialogue and information exchange that used to happen on your blog. I liked staying on topic, and I think your attempts to lead a good discussion are still vital, and informative. But I agree with a previous poster's comments that vitriolic personal posts should be moderated. Not banned, just moderated.
-Blair
Wow, when we could buy it at Whole Foods, in the SE, it was priced at $7 gallon. Then again, we kept buying direct from the farmer, who supplied Whole Foods, at a lower price.
While I am finding it increasingly difficult to wade through the comments on this blog, it is important to let the blog take the course we have witnessed these past several months for a very important reason.
If anyone were to regulate the content beyond what we have seen so far we would lose the valuable aspect of consistency that time offers us and the ability to reference a commentators patterns, biass, prejudices and comfort level currently allowed for those comments to understand better that persons integrity, practices as a producer, and or unstated goals or agenda.
It can be an ugly process, slow and laborious. Time is the enemy of consistency and spin. Time and freedom of expression without malice also allows us to see if a person has learned anything, and the changes of a groups understanding as a whole.
We are seeing patterns develop of the commentators here, sad as it may be to have our understandings of people challenged to those who have set themselves up as leaders to show themselves in the light of their true selves, but that is the consequence of time and unjustified assumptions.
Tim Wightman
Frankly, what RAWMI is proposing is the same as the original organic movement desire to be "certified" and the misguided efforts of several in that movement that decided to let the government "help" them. What happened is exactly what would happen with RAWMI…..consolidation and concentration on the production side of the market. Large dairies following the industrial model of production and less of the profits staying in the local economy.
RAWMI clearly desires to create a solid monopoly of raw milk available to the consumer. Mark's comments about the only other licensed dairy that can sell raw milk in California show more than a predilection on his part to use his own standards to malign others who don't do exactly as he does. All indications from the "big ole email" are that exactly that type of inference or direct accusation of inferior quality would become the norm with RAWMI achieving their goals.
We do not need more control in this country. We need more freedom and less regulation. We also need the anti-trust and monopoly laws to be enforced, but the current paradigm won't allow it.
To everyone that wants David to control the commenters, that is a very tough thing to do from an ideological standpoint. How can you be for freedom and cut some people off from expressing themselves? No one on the internet can do more than slur others or "show their butt". Since we are all adults, we should be able to weed through the garbage ourselves and not feed the trolls. Outright cursing is likely another story, but being a jerk should be allowed. It would be too time consuming to monitor all comments and then David would find himself having to explain why he wasn't allowing x or y to be posted. So, while I personally detest many things that are said and the spirit the appear to be given in….and while I rarely comment here myself because of the continued personal vendettas and even outright silliness of some of the commenters, I think David just needs to let it be. Spit out the bones and take the meat. It is evident who is worth discussing things with and who is not. Let's all just self police on the comments.
Thanks for letting me share some of my views!
Furor in Greece over Pedophilia as a Disability
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20120109/D9S5JI680.html
Mark,
No one is doubting that as people wake up to the toxic food system they would rather pay for good food than doctors and pharmaceuticals. What I am suggesting, though, is that as the economy continues to falter and general living expenses continue to rise, people may have to choose between paying their mortgage, or their electricity bill, or buying gas to get to one of the few jobs remaining in their area, or buying high-priced ($?) raw milk. When this becomes the case, where does it leave the raw milk movement?
I realize that California has the 8th largest economy in the world, and that you are not feeling the squeeze, but just ask someone who has lost their job in the last couple of years what their priorities are and what they would like them to be, and see if you get the same answer.
This scenario is a concern and a few have mentioned it. The word "organic" has different meanings to different people.
What has Claravale done NOT to be implicated in any outbreaks? Claravale has been in business a lot longer than OP.
Barney,
Many in Ca are feeling the squeeze. There are huge clusters of areas where people are still making money and areas where they are scrambling to make ends meet. I think the majority are walking a fine line and counting pennies. The enlisted in the military could not afford $14/gal on a regular basis, it would be a big splurge.
"But is it produced with the exact same standards as before the recall….even though it's for my pet?"
The answer is obviously "yes," since there were no standards for the previous product. Lest anyone misunderstand me, I'm not pro-regulation as I am pro-consumer information. This consumer's question is an example of the dairy's inability to communicate with its customers. There were no colostrum standards at all, not even standards of identity. Given that upwards of a few hundred cows produced three distinct colostrum products for a large retail market and that cows only produce colostrum for about three days a year, I did always wonder what was inside of those bottles.
I guess a farm can open itself for tours and still have gross problems in consumer education.
You're not telling me anything I didn't already know, Gordon. But you missed one part…
Watermelon. Green on the outside, red on the inside, with black seeds (black, in this case, being Anarchist)
Germany's not doing bad for having former card-carrying commies in its position of leadership. Germany is the most robust economy in the EU right now, and has weathered the economic storm remarkably well, as have Norway and Sweden (the other prominent European socialist nations).
While I understand the reasoning for it, I live in a state where this is how raw milk is sold wink wink it does raise a question or two. The head and founder of an association dedicated to standards for raw products is at the same time selling products under a "pet consumption label.
Not sure I know the right question on this much less answer but it seems like there is a conflict in there somewhere.
"A California woman is suing the maker of Tropicana claiming it is squeezing consumers by touting the best-selling U.S. orange juice as "100% pure and natural" when it is not."
As people begin to open their eyes and more and more begin to take action against tptb, et al, then perhaps things will change. Keep it open and factual.
I would hazard to guess that many were surprised to learn that OJ sits in a huge vat for about a year and then "flavorings" are added….definitely NOT fresh squeezed nor natural. Isn't that the same as reconstituted? Adulterated for sure.
"There will be no reduction in inspection presence at slaughter and processing facilities and no risk for consumers,"
No risk to consumers? LMAO who is he kidding? They cannot do their jobs when staffed….
Now the chicken houses, hog houses and cafos, etc will continue to worsen. Buying local and knowing your farmer will take on a whole new meaning.
Voids, of course, are defined by the fillers around themsignificant only when something is nearby to rush in. With nothing nearby to fill the space, theres no significance to the void. The perception of control voids exists today because third-party controllers exist as ubiquitous void fillers, firmly in force, ready to jump in wherever they are not. But that is a very, very new paradigm, and notably one that has grown from the realities of big business, big government, long-distance transportation of goods and services, and and technological and business complications. In other words, the need for third-party controllers resulted from invented systems that created voids between people and the products and services they use. Controls are emphatically not necessary and not desirable when a product or service is natural and uncomplicated, and when face-to-face contact can occur between the provider and consumer.
Controls have nevertheless become so well embedded into our lives that we take their presence for granted, to the point of expecting them no matter what the activity. Even when the natural pattern of individual decision-making can suffice, we still find ourselves asking for somebody to step in and tell us what is safe, what is right, what is allowed. Controls have, in other words, become as common as big business, big government, and the long-distance transportation of goods and services, while control-free zones are as uncommon as, say, small farms.
It is true that we have been so distanced for so long from basic goods and services (like real food!) that we have lost our once common knowledge about such things. Thus, like the tower one builds so a light can be put on it so planes wont hit it, third-party control can now be sold as necessary simply because it exists. That is a tragedy in of itself, but over-dependence on third parties is not a problem that will be solved by more dependence on third parties. We should rather identify the qualitative differences between faceless and face-to-face transactions, and between things that we all ought to have basic knowledge of and what we cannot be expected to adequately understand, and respond in kind.
I would argue that any system or product that is too big to understand ought to be whittled down to human scale if at all possible, but without that, we ought to at least give people a chance to learn and grow, and to care for themselves and each other. That is what regular folks in the face-to-face raw milk business are trying to do. They are doing better for themselves and their societies than the big systems are doing. Leave em alone, or better yet, follow them.